Originally posted by wokendreams Hey. Thanks for the help. I can work with the vertex postion however I am following a book that is very specific on topology and an edit could mean later complication. no it doesn't, i don't know who wrote the book but i sincereley doubt that it should be as in your "facegrab" if i were you i would listen to the many things the people mentioned to you and it doesn't hurt to look at other people who are modeling heads/ organic models and look at what comments they get. good luck