Originally posted by wokendreams My character WIP has hard edges on her eye lids lips boots and nose. They need to be there or things don't have the right tangents. Also you dont need a hard edge you need to preserve selection which is another thing entirely. Third time Ive said this but you obviously have not even given me the time to look. If you use preserve selection those edges will be sub divided but not moved which is what you are asking for with extra edges. Of course you'll need to take a second to see this. Sorry if I've caused you any offence. I do understand what you mean but I don't believe it's a very good way to model. This is based on advice I've read on this forum and others, and through practice. Also, I believe that inserting edge loops gives you greater control over your model - if you preserve any selections, you don't have as great a degree over the resulting contour as you do if you dictate the placement of your edge loops yourself. The algorithm dictates this for you. A model can be made to look good, smoothing it all, without absolute co-ordinates. My point at the start of the thread was that it would be more efficient if Maya displayed them, in terms of placing edge loops. thanks, gubar