thanks guys that's some fine C+C for me to digest! nothing is finalised on this yet (the spiders arent even smoothed yet or even textured!!) this was just a GI test to check my render times. I'm not sure on exactly how they will look or exactly how I'm going to handle the appearance of the big ones yet. I may even have the mother of all spiders appear in the background...... The terrain is temporary I'm gonna build that this week. But now I'm off for a well earned break for a day or so... so no maya/computers/women or stress (same thing no? ) Adl believes this guy will become a very good TD. thanks! lets hope MPC and Framestore think so when I apply to them this week Alan