i... dont know how to render wire frame tho... nothing has been explained to me ...at all... i learned maya by advice from friends and tuts... and ALOT of imagination... yeah i just made the horns like huge and started on the torso... yeah i dont feel like putting up a pic... so yeah... this is just an update... bc my shitty job is taking up all my working time... i have to work on my days off... and even then... i dont get much done... at all ~allan