yeh thanks heaps gster123 for the tip about soft normals while i dont think it was the problem here it is a far better way for me to smooth the model it stays closer to what i am working with instead of using poly smooth or subdiv' which both change the model in their own ways i am now using it with my Diana model it is working a treat so thanks ... i have not as yet tryed the vertex edit tool thing yet enhzflep as i got obcessed with, the newly discovered, capacity to redraw geometry (very exciting ) its allways so much easier when you know how