hey toxic bunny! thanks for the info. ramp shaded the trees, of course it's all so obvious now! you know now that i've started using maya heavily i tend to overcomplicate stuff but what you said has made me rethink my approach to this new project. in the next couple of weeks we'll be making a start so i'll post my progress so you can keep me in check! i think the stuff i've posted recently was a bit too far down the line for peeps to give me any crit (that or you all hate me!) so i'll do this one from the beginning. thanks again toxic, i appreciate it.