Hey Guys Sorry for the late reply: MAstone: Yes I know that one LOL, the power of perspective eh LOL. BenHobden: Its just a term used. Like a color pass, or AO pass. I'll use the noise plugin in ZB4 to create an uneven bump surface for the rocks - hence noise pass. Hope that helps For some reason my OutlawsTales site is down, and I cant get hold of the bastards at technical support to see what the hell is going on. Its been nearly 4 days now!! will keep you updated anyway as always with any new stuff cheers Jay