well i'll have to give those two a try and get back to you guys it seems to go away after i set to face but later on they will come back again i have noticed that after i merge vertices (although not all just some) i will have a model full of black squares. I would like to know what i might have done to start this mess ... (Edge loops are hard ehough arent they? ... although i think i know where i want them to go, just figureing out the geometry )