thanx cris. and hey i'd like to see something of yours...just whip something up for us to see. ok so the other day was the concept and for the past 2 hours i tried some modeling (in lightwave) and here's what i came up with. fairly close to the pic so im happy with it not too sure how to add details tho...that will be harder. any advice on detailing a subD mesh without too much mess appreciated.