you missed the point of the whole conversation mate. You'll need to go onto my Alien Thread to get the whole spiel. I was telling legend of zombie and Stwert the benefits of practising 2d and that they'll benefit from doing 2d - It wasnt a case of telling them to use photo reference as opposed to drawing their own. You answered the whole thing yourself too at the end of your post LOL Jay Jay, thats why alot people just go from references instead of actually drawing them. Errr..don't know how my reply accused you of telling someone to use a photo reference. The intent of my reply was to point out that alot of people will use a photo reference over creating one. Guess I should have worded that reply better. Lol, I guess really weren't on the same page in that respect. Dag-burnet, don't you just hate it when that happens!