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Old 04-01-2010, 10:44 PM   #241
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Default 2d to 3d

Stwert wanted this put into a thread from my own so more people can have a say on it too. thanks Stwert

heres where it all leaves off:

This was the start of a discussion in Jay's alien thread, and I wanted to respond, but didn't want to hijack the thread further, so if it's ok, I'm just going to copy in the question and some answers and then respond. Hopefully the conversation can continue here with lots of people's input.

Coldwave: And one question from me ...
It is must to have 2D art skills to be good at 3D or i'm wrong?
or at least to be better than those 3D artists that can't draw on 2D..
thx

legendofzombi: My opinion on that question woudl be this:
If you plan to develop your own concept work, to be done in 3d, then a working knowledge of aspects of 2d work would of course be very useful.

Otherwise, While yes, knowing how to put pen to paper Would be a useful skill in art as a whole and could not serve to hinder your efforts in 3d, i do not see that it would its self enhance your ability as a 3d artist.

However Art is not something that is learned. A person either Is an artist, or isn't. Yes you have to learn the software you are using and techniques that need to be employed for this and that. But a person who is not artistic or imaginative can know all day long how to Use the software in question and not produce a scrap of art with the knowledge.

For example:
Anyone with time and dedication can reproduce any object they see in a tutorial as they watch the tutorial, but Not everyone can take those skills and apply them to a different object to recreate it.

Also, I have found at least for my own work, i woudl not know for sure about industry work, but having a bit of imagination when dealing with concepts is necessary. you have a road...ok so you can model the road, but the concept doesn't show other bits that might make it look nicer, Light poles, Street lamps, fire hydrants, ect, an artist would be needed to employ that sort of addition to the concept.


Jay: In my opinion 2d is a must. If you can get yourself on an evening course or class once a week to do it then do so.

2d Art is the absolute foundation of any art, and it serves as a basis in which to establish the forms of any given object albeit organic or otherwise. You get light and shadow for free without having to set anything up, that is something else to learn too. These skills will then hopefully cross into sculpture and 3d and so on.

Also worth doing is carrying a small sketch book around with you, just doodle some stuff in a given time, you'll improve in no time and as I said the skills will show in other areas.


stwerts reply

In response to legendofzombi's comment "Art is not something that is learned. A person either Is an artist, or isn't." I really have to disagree.

I do agree that some people show amazing talent early on with no real training. Lucky them, I say. The rest of us have to learn how to be an artist. Am I an artist? I don't know... probably not much of one, but I'm not as good as I could be and will be. That I know for sure. An person's "artistic" eye can be trained and developed. Principles of composition and design can be learned. Creativity can be stimulated. Someone who never held a pencil before can learn how to produce something that many people can view and enjoy as a work of art. I think it's unfortunate that people think "I can't draw" or "I can't make make visible what I see in my head" and conclude that it will always be so. It can be learned if someone practice, study, look, practice, experiment, practice, fail, and do. That's the stage I'm at right now. I'm not much of an artist, I want to be better, and so I'm learning how. If I thought it couldn't be learned, I'd have given up long ago.

All that aside, I too think it can be very helpful to learn 2D while doing 3D. Simple example: I need reference images but I can't find exactly what I'm looking for. Solution: Use your ideas and inexact existing images and create your own.
Your eye becomes developed in other ways that will help with 3D. Defining and reproducing light is one area I think has been mentioned.

Anyway, it's good to hear some people's ideas on this and advice. I just bought a sketchbook and have started doing some sketching. I registered for a continuing studies class on composition and design today . What other things do you do to improve your artistic ability?


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Old 04-01-2010, 11:17 PM   #242
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See My reason for disagreeing with 3d being a must for 3d(While i whole heartedly understand and agree that it can be helpful,i think i stated earlier, but i don't recall for sure and I'm too lazy to navigate to the other thread and look lol ) , is...I myself while i cannot draw for crap without a picture to stare at and copy... I can model anything in my head, given the time to do so.

I can 'copy' 2d art when i see it, and have blank paper. but developing a concept from scratch in 2d has always been beyond me up till not at least. But if i see something in my head, and i want to model it. I can develop the concept in 3d no problem, following the same basic principles of 2d concept work, Rough blocky shapes, ( akin to a silhouette ) followed by slightly more detail, so forth and so on.

Now, at the risk of sounding like a smart ass, and i do this only because Jay, you know me well enough to know I'm not. ....well usually. Do the laws of physics cease to exist on the right side of my brain? or have i perhaps just developed my own work flow to suite the talents i chose to develop?

What would your take on that one be my friend?

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Old 04-01-2010, 11:46 PM   #243
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Chances are most of us wont be modelling or even drawing from from 'Live' reference 90 percent of the time so....

Think of it this way....as an example....

you load image planes into maya to refer to whilst modelling, the images are 2d. Based on what you see is basically how the final model will become whole in 3d. Its a translation of such.

So the less you know of how the form should be reproduced in 2d how can you possibly ascetain it to properly translate into 3d.

So therefore increasing the knowledge of the form in 2d, just thru the study of light and shade WILL translate to 3d far better. All these basics are the absolute fundentals of the artform itself.

granted that not everyone can draw from birth. But in order to be an artist or even a better one, you go to art class. Not to learn 3d but 2d.....then after the 2d comes the 3d...its a natural progression when you whittle it down to the basics. You mention silohuette...its 2d, again a basic principle, you master that then add to it, it becomes whole. The greater the understanding of the light, shade or depth the better the translation to any art after that.

I mean this all in the nicest way of course just so hopefully you see what Im getting at.


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Old 04-01-2010, 11:50 PM   #244
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I see what you're getting at.

Want to know the funny thing bro?
up there i said i can copy things if i see them, from what i look at, to a blank sheet of paper with pencil, ect....
Just like with 3d, i could never draw a face, even when attempting to copy from an existing image.

I suppose I'll pick up one of those pocket sketch pads and take to work with me, to sketch while I'm not busy, see what i can come up with. though i can guarantee it will not be pretty lol

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Old 04-01-2010, 11:57 PM   #245
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2D or not 2D....a question thats very opinionated.
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Old 04-01-2010, 11:59 PM   #246
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Cool mate, a sketch pad will keep the mind fresh too. trust me.


THX: LOL too true mate. I always say to my wife I could gladly give up the 3d and pc work to jsut sit and draw all day in a cottage by a beach......


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Old 05-01-2010, 12:14 AM   #247
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Chances are most of us wont be modelling or even drawing from from 'Live' reference 90 percent of the time so.... Think of it this way....as an example.... you load image planes into maya to refer to whilst modelling, the images are 2d. Based on what you see is basically how the final model will become whole in 3d. Its a translation of such. So the less you know of how the form should be reproduced in 2d how can you possibly ascetain it to properly translate into 3d. So therefore increasing the knowledge of the form in 2d, just thru the study of light and shade WILL translate to 3d far better. All these basics are the absolute fundentals of the artform itself. granted that not everyone can draw from birth. But in order to be an artist or even a better one, you go to art class. Not to learn 3d but 2d.....then after the 2d comes the 3d...its a natural progression when you whittle it down to the basics. You mention silohuette...its 2d, again a basic principle, you master that then add to it, it becomes whole. The greater the understanding of the light, shade or depth the better the translation to any art after that. I mean this all in the nicest way of course just so hopefully you see what Im getting at. Jay
Jay, thats why alot people just go from references instead of actually drawing them.

Want to know the funny thing bro? up there i said i can copy things if i see them, from what i look at, to a blank sheet of paper with pencil, ect.... Just like with 3d, i could never draw a face, even when attempting to copy from an existing image.
Drawing a face isn't exactly an easy thing to do for just anybody. You should have a decent understanding of human anatomy before you attempt it. Otherwise it will look like something a second grader could do IMO.
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Old 05-01-2010, 09:16 AM   #248
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THX

you missed the point of the whole conversation mate. You'll need to go onto my Alien Thread to get the whole spiel.

I was telling legend of zombie and Stwert the benefits of practising 2d and that they'll benefit from doing 2d - It wasnt a case of telling them to use photo reference as opposed to drawing their own.

You answered the whole thing yourself too at the end of your post LOL


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Old 05-01-2010, 06:14 PM   #249
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Originally posted by legendofzombi

However Art is not something that is learned. A person either Is an artist, or isn't. Yes you have to learn the software you are using and techniques that need to be employed for this and that. But a person who is not artistic or imaginative can know all day long how to Use the software in question and not produce a scrap of art with the knowledge.
I disagree entirely, while it isn't something you can get better at by reading a text book but if someone really makes an effort to improve their imagination/creative ability/ artistic ability then they can.
You used reproducing an object as an example but with practice and dedication someone can easily get better at doing it.

I don't believe anyone is born with/without talent, I think you have to work for it (Although a lot of it is decided before you really get to think about it (age<5), so it depends on your upbringing) but you can still get better well after that age (besides, the sooner you fall behind the more time you have to catch up ).

For example, me and my brother are genetically identical (identical twins) and it is widely accepted that he has zero creative ability. While I'm not that creative, I am certainly more so than him and I think that's because I've stuck at it longer, I played with lego, I modeled with plastercine and I was well below average in all creative things to start with, but I feel I am gradually getting better, I'm certainly getting better at recreating things (with plastercine at least).
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:44 PM   #250
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To get scientific on this. I've seen several documentaries, that state, ( Granted all things in science are only theories, some are stronger then others depending on the test of time ) Some people's brains naturally aspire in different directions. We all know art is controlled by the right side of the brain. Basically studies show that even as infants the right side of some peoples brains are more active then the left. and studying these people as they grew they showed a more artistic aptitude. While people who had a more active left side of the brain showed more inclination to logical through processes. I.E. science, mechanics, mathematics. ect ect.

its the same basic principle as we all know some people have no common sense, they are book smart but not street smart, some people have no sense of humor, ect, its all based upon the persons brain development and activity throughout their life. so current scientific principles and theories state anyway.

That's where i am basing my statement on. Yes, i do believe that practice and study make for better artists, or anything. But i do not believe it can be learned, or taught, only true artistic ability which already layed within someone can be enhanced and explored.

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Old 05-01-2010, 08:56 PM   #251
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Actually the whole science thing is true.

there was a programme on here about athletes and also the violinist vanessa mae. Now they were on about both parties being blessed with natural talent, but to become the absolute best they still had to be nurtured or trained to really bring it out. I believe they said that its around 85 percent 'ish' natural ability and the rest is training and dedication. But also each of them could still fall short and become non achievers leaving the real talent to stay dorment. It always that last '10%' thats the decider really as to how far you can go and of course attitude..

Needless to say theres nothing stopping anyone from achieving anything they desire. If you want it bad enough, you will do it.


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Old 05-01-2010, 09:23 PM   #252
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The need i suppose exists in all of us, even the want.
I believe that the main factor that effects it out side of the science of the human brain is in our upbringing, woudl be the 'drive' that is instilled in us by our parents, or lack there of in some people. While i do realise that in some rare cases the drive might not be placed in by the parents, but still a person has it. A friend of mine's father was a dead beat and mother was a stripper, neither of them cared about anythign but their next line of blow. Yet my friend makes about 80 grand a year as a mechanic for a heavy equipment firm here so i suppose there are acceptions.

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Old 05-01-2010, 09:24 PM   #253
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edit: two of you have posted since I started writing (internet problems) so please take that in to account

I think you may be looking at it wrong though, you say they have a more active side which causes them to be more artist or more logical. But you have to consider that because they are being logical they are using there left side more, so of course it will show more activity.
What I'm trying to say is that it could well be the other way around. Not the increased brain activity causing the behavior, but the behavior causing the brain activity.

'its the same basic principle as we all know some people have no common sense, they are book smart but not street smart, some people have no sense of humor, ect, its all based upon the persons brain development and activity throughout their life. so current scientific principles and theories state anyway. '

You say it is based on their activity throughout their life. So surly this includes someone doing artistic things that can help develop their artistic side

Much mathematics isn't about learning facts and formulae, it's the ability to think. You can't learn it from a textbook, you get better at it by doing it and I see no reason why you cannot do the same for maths

I know some VERY 'logically inclined' (almost Vulcan like) people but I have seen them get better at some creative things when they want to, they just never really bothered. One starting having music lessons, and he is now writing what seems to be quite good pieces, where as before he started he was hopeless. I don't just think it's knowledge of the theory that has helped him, he has a much better sense of rhythm and timing and these are clearly skills he has acquired and wasn't born with.

I'm not saying genetics doesn't play a role but I don't think it means someone is completely incapable of art

I believe it is nurture rather than nature. You can still improve but if you are reading this then by now it will be much harder for you to do so than it would have been if you were pushed that way when you were little
I still think you can become an artist no matter who you are. If I didn't believe it then I would never have started 3D

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Old 05-01-2010, 10:31 PM   #254
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There's a ton of interesting biopsychological ideas swirling around here that aren't completely understood and are the subject of intense debate, though there is a whole lot understood better now than ever before.
Does behaviour influence brain or brain influence behaviour?... haha, ask that to a psychologist and a biologist and biopsychologist and watch the sparks fly!

Personally, I think this right brain, left brain stuff is a bit overblown. You say "oh, I'm right brained, I'm creative." I say, "Good for you. I have both halves of my brain and they both function." End of pet peeve rant.

I think what is most important and what it boils down to in the practical outcome of this discussion is this: Someone is unsure of their ability/future in whatever capacity. If someone tells them "You weren't born to do this, and there's really only 10-15% 'potential' that you can influence through your behaviour, since you were raised in X and have gene Y." (NB: I realize I'm stretching a little bit what has been discussed above). That will be very destructive. What is true is that the more someone tries, fails, and is encouraged, the closer they will get to achieving art, whether they have that "inborn talent" or not.
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:54 PM   #255
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you missed the point of the whole conversation mate. You'll need to go onto my Alien Thread to get the whole spiel. I was telling legend of zombie and Stwert the benefits of practising 2d and that they'll benefit from doing 2d - It wasnt a case of telling them to use photo reference as opposed to drawing their own. You answered the whole thing yourself too at the end of your post LOL Jay
Jay, thats why alot people just go from references instead of actually drawing them.
Errr..don't know how my reply accused you of telling someone to use a photo reference. The intent of my reply was to point out that alot of people will use a photo reference over creating one. Guess I should have worded that reply better.

Lol, I guess really weren't on the same page in that respect.

Dag-burnet, don't you just hate it when that happens!
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