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Old 02-05-2010, 09:04 AM   #46
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marlon,

go grab a slab, cupla billy's and a feed mate, she'll be right after that.



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Old 02-05-2010, 09:07 AM   #47
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Steve,

Derby?? (Darby), I have cousins living, or used to live there!!! My Nanna's clan come from the Midlands, I donna belleev it. And I live near Midland in Perth, named after the mother country......bahahaha
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Old 02-05-2010, 02:29 PM   #48
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Originally posted by bullet1968
Steve,

Derby?? (Darby), I have cousins living, or used to live there!!! My Nanna's clan come from the Midlands, I donna belleev it. And I live near Midland in Perth, named after the mother country......bahahaha
Ah, cool. Yeah I live in Derby (Darby). Some great history with Australia and the "mother Country".

As for your points on navigation... I agree. It would be extremely hard to predict the location of point B. I can imagine it would be done with lot of complex algorithms and some even more complex maths.

But I think a lot of it would have to do with observation. Much as we observe exoplanets now. We would study it for a few years, gaining insight into it's orbital behavior, and slowly plotting a pattern, which can be followed with moderate accuracy.
What we also need to take into account is that 1,000 years (the time it takes for light to travel from point B to point A (Earth)) is not very long at all in terms of planets and Stars. We could study the the Planet's Star and look for signs of aging, we could also look for markers of a dying star, increased temperature (above the normal expected temperature). And even if such anomalies are detected, 1,000 years is like a day to a Star... nothing major will have happened. We have to remember that our Star has been burning for Billions of years!

But of course there is still a lot of risk, and a probe would be send out long before a person would ever be flown there.

Of course though, if wormhole technology is developed, we could send a probe there in the blink of an eye. And we would know the exact state of the planet.
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Old 02-05-2010, 02:48 PM   #49
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Ima go to beda, gotta get uppa @ 0500.

Yeh wormholes sound nice dont they?? gets rid of a lot of calcs (in a way). I will have to read up on them again, I cant remember how the destination was actually positioned and opened, unless you know my boy? Nah I will Google and research that one.

Yeh my Great Aunty and Uncle with said kids spent all their lives in Derby. We come from around those there parts, yeh man, its a bond that wont break I wouldnt think. Too many Aussie lives been lost defending the 'Old dart'.

cheers Ant
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Old 02-05-2010, 03:56 PM   #50
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@ Steve on Quantum entanglement

Your question was how do we get the new particles to point B.
My question is, once the new particals are @ point b, having been entangle d with the particals that made my body and being up while i was living, as they are 'activated' and since it took well over 1000 years to get said particals to the destination, once i am reformed out of those particals at that point, have i not then cheated death, having been reborn By something on the order of 1,000,000 years after my death?

@ bullet on spacial coordinate calculations.
Doppler effect is used to tell the speed and distance of an object, But its based on light, not sound. so it is referred to Blue shift and red shift, Blue shift indicated that a mass or body is traveling towards us, such as the Andromeda galaxy ( due to collide with the Milky way in some 2 billion years ) Red shift, indicates moving away ( Basically all of the objects in the outer observable universe are red shifted ) ... one can also use this to determine their distance, and direction ( the math involved is above my head, i just take their word for it lol )

To answer your statement about how we can determine where to shoot something so far away. Well, #1, you have to remember that the universe is...well very large, so we can theoretically take a back site that is 14 billion light years, and remember that is basically 14,000,000,000 * c
calculating the probable location, ( or expected location if the object no longer exists) would not be an issue for us with the current knowledge of shifted light and a spectral analysis of said object.
you must consider that the Mayan's were able to calculate the length of our year to within 2 hours of the current best calculation.
Weather the object we used as a back site still does or does not exist, is not an issue, since we will not be traveling towards it.
all of the above statements can be taken in reverse for the object being traveled to.

@ steve, that bastard took away our moonshot?
I hate him now....disliked him first, hate him now.
First they take away the T.P.F. which was a big pisser in its self, now the moon? that's Bull. The largest untapped source of green energy in the ...well in our current reach, exists on the moon....easily obtainable, Everything needed to convert large portions of the moons surface into solar panels, not to mention creating the largest wind turbines ever seen to capture and convert the solar wind into power is right there.
Then you have to think that if someone gets off their ass, builds the space elevator, and gets us set up for in expensive trips into space ( oddly i have seen figured that the space elevator would cost about as much to launch and get set up, as 3 conventional space launches. so why haven't we done it yet? or made plans to do it? )

There are Natural gas reserves within our reach that would power the earth for hundreds of hears, while we developed more green technology, Hell we could even use Co2 scrubbers to assist in cleaning our atmosphere, and toss them at Venus, I assure you, we will not do any harm to that planet LoL!
H20 reserves waiting to be tapped about 1.2. Asteroids that could be mines easily.......basically if we spent the money to take the step to make the explorations, we could easily solve many many of our problems, but the people who make the decisions are stuck with the here and now, selfishly concerned about what their bottom line is, and don't give a flying duck shit about the future of our children, or the planet.
I firmly believe that the survival of the human race will be determined in the cosmos, not on this planet.

K, I'm done.

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Old 03-05-2010, 12:18 AM   #51
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g-man,

whew, breathe mate, breathe....LOL. Yep I agree on the calc of the masses with blue and red (good animation by the way). I still have trouble with the projected vector though, too many unknowns as everything COULD be moving away/torwards us but not necessarily on a direct vector (ie spreading out in all directions). I would however assume if it were possible to travel then I would have a new vocation. Yes people a Space Surveyor!!!! coooolllll where I would map said objects whilst cruising around and building a spacial map for the masses coming behind.

TPF???

As an Aussie and in particular West Aussie I know full well about gas mate, over 80% of our economy runs on resources, I just spent 2.5 years in the bush working on projects involved with natural gas. They say Aussie reserves are huge but I dont believe them.

Dont forget Helium3 on the moon g-man. This supposedly is our next big shot at something new. According to the doco I watched a mere palmful could power NYC. On the same program there was also something under the ocean? I dont think it was helium3 but something similar. They need to solve the nuclear fusion.

Asteroid mining, I agree entirely mate!!! That IS feasible, doable and well and truly a right step. The people in power dont give a rats arse about the future or for our kids. Lining ones pockets is paramount to their agenda. We need more people like Richard Branson and the like to step up to the plate and say "enough is f...ing enough". Stop this bullshit warmongering and get on with it. Have a look at how much is spent by the US and China alone PER FRIGGIN DAY on weapons. If only 10% of this was redirected back home to our poor Mum (Earth) then you would see change. Anyway thats getting into politics and we should stay away from that I think???

Breathe, cough, fart,splutter, Im spent.

cheers Ant
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Old 03-05-2010, 03:27 AM   #52
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In an attempt to steer this away form the forbidden zone of Politics ( as per the forum rules) and the green gold Debate, which is political in nature to some extend, I offer this paradox for all of your consideration.

It is well known and discussed that Time travel presents a type of purgatory, a paradox, something that cannot be allowed to happen, if for no other reason then our minds cannot truly comprehend the outcome to any logical conclusion.

I.E. in the Great Hawkings Example on his docu about time travel.
A man invents a time machine, that has a window to the past.
He loads a gun, and opens a pathway to a time 5 minutes earlier, through this windows he watches himself load the gun, Then he shoots himself in the head before he was ever in the future with the gun to be able to shoot himself. Which begs the question, who shot him. it is a paradox and is not possible.

So I pose, A a paradox to you. Constant Readers.
You are born into a world, where your father became the next Hitler, you travel back in time and tell your grandfather he must kill your father, before you are born, so that he does not grow up to become said hitler.

You are some how able to convince your grandfather of this, and he does so. ....Who came back to warn him?


I also pose a question to you.
We are raised to believe, that time is linear...because our feeble human brains cannot conceive of any other such path for time to take, ...What other possibilities could their be for the flow of time its self.
Could time actually flow backwards to how we perceive it?
To say, Mayhap's what we do tomorrow, already happened, but time plays its self in reverse, and we perceive it as moving forward in a linear motion.

Or, what if time truly is a Wheel, not to be cliche with both Journey or Robert Jordan. As to say, What if to quote the "Book of Pithia" in the Re-imagined BSG series " All that has happened will happen again"...meaning time is a never ending loop,
the later would support the theory that the universe is in a constant cycle of renewal, I.E. it explodes, expands, contracts, and explodes again ( i have a different theory, but for argument sake )

The loops theory could also be used as an argument towards the reverse flow of time.

My theory on the beginning of the universe, will be saved to start off the next discussion in a day or two

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Old 03-05-2010, 04:01 AM   #53
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Arrrrrr g-man,

what a way to start the day!!!! hope everyone is having an ale or BIG coffee on this one. I agree entirely mate, the 'grandfather paradox' is very interesting, though according to wiki, Mr Hawking proposed time travel is possible, but you are in a paralell timeline, even more confusing eh??

Read this folks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox

I do agree though, time isnt necessarily a linear dimension. As far as I can remember for a positive there must be a negative (I could be wrong). So a forward flow in time a reverse flow must exist or even multi flow (in all directions).

I would like to hear your theory on the beginning mate?? This should be interesting.

BTW I have just read an article on geothermal energy, apparently it is big news and business in South Australia. It will be interesting to see what comes of it, the world is watching the little state, good luck to them.

cheers Ant
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Old 03-05-2010, 05:06 AM   #54
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and some background music for the brainstorming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PieS0zG228A
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:44 AM   #55
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Well since the last topic didn't start much of a conversation, oddly enough
I will alleviate Bullet's curiosity as to my theory, or idea on a possible beginning to ....well everything.

First to wrap your head around my theory at all there are a few princibles of physics and cosmology that one must atleast have a mediocre undertstanding of.

#1 Hawking Radiation. In simple terms, Stephen Hawking proved with math years ago while correcting an earlier theory on black holes, that They will and do eventually "evaporate" into nothing... This isn't Hawking radiation its self, but it is a principle discovered by Hawking while he was perusing the answer to his conundrum.

Now the reason for this evaporation is caused by the well accepted principle of Quantum mechanics what proves that particles, (quarks, Neutrons, Neutrino's and the like ) are always popping in and out existence, they will appear and the Disappear in barely measurable moments of Planck time.
Each of this particals that appear have an Anti partical, that appears with it. Now what happens wiht the particals near a black hole is that evry so often the - particle will appear beyone the event horizon, and never be able to disappear and being as it is an anti particale, or negative, it will take away part of the black hole ( same princible as with negativ enumbers, if you add to a negative number, you actually take away from it ...

#2 A black hole is a singularity, which as Michio Kaku so eloquently put it is a word for we " have no clue what is happening". The laws of physics, gravity and time all cease to exist within the black hole's event horizon. Basically the interior of a black hole could be described as the same thing that the universe was made of before it existed. a big ol ball of "W.T.F.?!"

#3... If the big bang happened in a second, who is to say that what we see, as our reality, is not still being viewed by another universe watching their black hole as a moment in time that has never and will never play its self out.

there lies the paradox of Hawkings discovery, Time does not flow inside of a black hole, as far as we are concerned on the outside, but Black holes to disappear with time due to the things happening within them.

I want a physicist to explore the theory that Perhaps the death of every black hole, is the birth of another universe,
perhaps our own universe was born within the death of a black hole in another universe.

I haven't actually fully explored the theory at this point, but i have put some thought into it still.
any takers ?

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Old 05-05-2010, 03:57 AM   #56
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Very interesting g-man.

I will have to search for some vidoes on Michio, we didnt seem to get them here in Australia.

Since I was young I always thought that the matter devoured by a black hole was transported to another universe therefore creating a new one, you have answered my curiosity perfectly.
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:58 PM   #57
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Originally posted by legendofzombi
In an attempt to steer this away form the forbidden zone of Politics ( as per the forum rules) and the green gold Debate, which is political in nature to some extend, I offer this paradox for all of your consideration.

It is well known and discussed that Time travel presents a type of purgatory, a paradox, something that cannot be allowed to happen, if for no other reason then our minds cannot truly comprehend the outcome to any logical conclusion.

I.E. in the Great Hawkings Example on his docu about time travel.
A man invents a time machine, that has a window to the past.
He loads a gun, and opens a pathway to a time 5 minutes earlier, through this windows he watches himself load the gun, Then he shoots himself in the head before he was ever in the future with the gun to be able to shoot himself. Which begs the question, who shot him. it is a paradox and is not possible.

So I pose, A a paradox to you. Constant Readers.
You are born into a world, where your father became the next Hitler, you travel back in time and tell your grandfather he must kill your father, before you are born, so that he does not grow up to become said hitler.

You are some how able to convince your grandfather of this, and he does so. ....Who came back to warn him?


I also pose a question to you.
We are raised to believe, that time is linear...because our feeble human brains cannot conceive of any other such path for time to take, ...What other possibilities could their be for the flow of time its self.
Could time actually flow backwards to how we perceive it?
To say, Mayhap's what we do tomorrow, already happened, but time plays its self in reverse, and we perceive it as moving forward in a linear motion.

Or, what if time truly is a Wheel, not to be cliche with both Journey or Robert Jordan. As to say, What if to quote the "Book of Pithia" in the Re-imagined BSG series " All that has happened will happen again"...meaning time is a never ending loop,
the later would support the theory that the universe is in a constant cycle of renewal, I.E. it explodes, expands, contracts, and explodes again ( i have a different theory, but for argument sake )

The loops theory could also be used as an argument towards the reverse flow of time.

My theory on the beginning of the universe, will be saved to start off the next discussion in a day or two

g-man
Sorry guys, I'm in the middle of moving house.... it came sooner than I thought. So I have't had the internet... but now I'm at my parents' house I'm able to check mail and what not.

G-man on Quantum Entanglement.

No, you would not have cheated death... because after you died (original you) your quantum twin would have died too.... it's the law of quantum entanglement. What is true for A is ALWAYS true for B. There is no way of putting your Quantum Twin in stasis, as you would need to be in stasis too.

So, my question still remains.

As for time travel, I don't believe (with my limited understanding) that time is linear. I also don't believe that is a constantly revolving event. I believe it's a dynamic entity, consisting of millions of possibilities all playing out as time moves on, with everything you do creating an alternate timeline and/or dimension. With this theory the paradox is no longer an issue.

I will use Hawking's Mad scientist paradox as my example...

When the mad scientist travels one minute back in time he breaks away from his original timeline creating a new one, as his original timeline must carry on forward. When he shoots himself, he is actually shooting an alternate him. When he tries to head back to his original timline he creates a new one... as his original one has gone on without him, this might sound alarming, but if you think about it we are creating alternate timelines all the time. Every time you make a decision you split off into a new timeline. And time like any living thing grows and expands indefinably.

At least that's my thoughts on it.

I'll get back on some of the other stuff later.
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:29 PM   #58
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Interesting steve, indeed. But why if he can travel 'around' in time could he not hook back into his own time?? If he has left his own time (if I have this right) then his original timeline then exists without him? So what happens in the original timeline?
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Old 05-05-2010, 05:08 PM   #59
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Originally posted by bullet1968
Interesting steve, indeed. But why if he can travel 'around' in time could he not hook back into his own time?? If he has left his own time (if I have this right) then his original timeline then exists without him? So what happens in the original timeline?
Well as time is in a continues forward movement if you were to travel back in time 10 years, when you left your time you would be breaking of from your timeline and enter the same one at a different time, but as you we're not there before, you disrupt the timeline and it fractures off and creates a new. This would be an "alternate" timeline. No matter what changes you make in this timeline you would not be editing the original. And as you spend time in this new timeline, lets say a week, time would be passing at the same rate for your original timeline... which means you are no longer present, and your family are all missing you, as you've essentially just vanished... never to be seen again.

But that's the thing with time travel, you could just jump back to one minute after you left your original timeline, and all would be well, right? No.

When you reentered your timeline one minute after you left, time would fracture again, as you don't belong... Time has already moved on without you. Events have already played out, and millions of permutation of your original timeline now exist, and it would be impossible for it to reintegrate you into them all. So as a means of self preservation, you would be set off on your own "new" timeline.
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Old 05-05-2010, 05:34 PM   #60
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I think it's best portrayed in Back to the Future Part II, where if you change something in the past, the future is a completely different timeline, but of course you can't just change it back to the original by "fixing what you changed". And by that extension, the past that you travel to will never have really existed in the past, because now you are in it. It's a separate flip of the coin, as it were.
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