***TOPOLOGY***

[Jay]

Hey All

Lets Use this thread as a discussion for character topology. Post up your images of your character meshes in here to get some advice for your own WiP's

I'll start this off with one of my own on a head....The base mesh before a level 1 Subdivision Surface conversion

Jay

[marlonjohn]

Here is mine,

A question from me Jay, ived always wanted to know and maybe some other people, what is with all that level 1-5 i think mesh etc?

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3599/newnew1re1.pnghttp://img183.imageshack.us/img183/9166/newnew2ih0.png

Marlon

[enhzflep]

And here's another.. 572 faces - way to many of them triangles, I reckon.

[gster123]

Well, heres the head that I did a while back, i've not changed much just cleaned up the geometry a bit and then went on to modeling the torso.

Think it could be more efficient and better with more ref, but as this was my first "proper" go I thought it came out ok.

[gster123]

Jay, gotta say I love the flow round the jaw area on yours, looks very efficent.

Do you keep it all quads or do you let the odd tri in as your post on Cgtalk? Or is it just for what your going to do with it?

Joining 3dsk soon so when I get some good ref i'm gonna give a head/human another crack, trying to keep the mesh efficient.

Cheers

[vladimirjp]

nice base mesh Jay.

but i personally shy away from poles [5 faces sharing a single vert]
rigging it is sometimes fustrating; trying to equaly distribute weights accross 5 faces. thats a main reason why perfect squares are preferred. they sometimes look odd when deformed at extreme poses [on cartoony characters for instance]
also poles on Sub D especially, give bad specular highlights.

i would tweak a few more spots myself. nice start tho.
as for N-gons, i have not yet had any bad experiences with them when i do poly smooths instead of subD.
so , i love n-gons because of the flexibility

[marlonjohn]

hey vlad, just out of curiousity... is it possible to have all quad faces instead of having a couple 5 sided faces sharing 1 vertex as you said about jays mesh? never really seen one to be honest,

[vladimirjp]

sure its possible. but not worth having.
but its best to place them in areas that dont deform much or in areas that naturally collapse on themselves like corner of the nosewhere the nostrils are.
this is not written in stone. its just my preference when modeling for animation.

[Jay]

Wow a great start to the thread...excellent.

I'll answer as much as I can now as Im at work.

Marlon John: Levels of division etc... There are 2 ways to look at these. 1) If you are modeling on a subd surface, you can right click over the mesh and select Finer, this will then place Level edits to your mesh ie; level 1 upwards, allowing you to model in more detail. However these can cause problems when you go back to a base poly mesh you can lose the detail and when/if you convert to a poly for the final model the mesh would simply be too dense, in those Level Edit areas. 2) Levels of Subdivision are also when you choose to add more geometry to a lower res poly model, you can either choose subdivide or poly smooth the mesh by typing in a value from 1 upwards. I hope this all makes sense.

gster: Good effort though I think less geometry would be good and work on those loops. Thanks dude, Everything is quad in ALL my models there are no tris at all, not even at CGTalk, its probably the angle.

Vlad: Cheers dude, I dont have a prob with the poles, the one on the lower jaw isnt thats the angle (again on that) I'll post up a close up later once Im home. As I do blend shapes for my facial expressions I know what the rig is doing as opposed to having joint deform the face, and NGons too I dont have a prob with, I think theres plenty in the ears LOL. Looking at a lot of Stahlbergs work he has 5 siders in some strange places, even on the face in areas such as cheeks, he doesnt worry about those, just as well really hiswork is pretty darn good.

Anyways lets keep this rolling

Jay

[Jay]

LOL Vlad, my bad that is a pole on the jaw LOL, apologies dude...

Cheers
Jay

[gster123]

Cheers Jay,

As you said about the geometry and loops, i'm keeping that in mind for my next go.

I think its something that comes with practice starting over and trying to tweek as much out of the basic shapes right from the start and not going for the split poly tool (or whatever method peeps use) right away to add detail and loops (which is what I did and then came a cropper and went back to try and reduce the geo and readjust the loops!!) which I think looking at other posts, it affects other "organic starters" too.

Cheers for posting yours Jay, i'll be refering to it when i'm giving my next model a go! LOL, which I will be posting in here when I get it going (might be a while as i'm gathering info for it at the mo)

As you say about Stahlbergs work, he has a few ngons and tri's, suppose its just a matter of knowing your job and getting them in the right places.

[vladimirjp]

cool man.
this shtread might motivate me to model again, i havent done that in months. :)
ill probably make something like a cartoony guy.

[Jay]

Hey Vlad
yeah do it dude!!

gster:
No probs, it helps to actually draw your meshes too so you have an idea where to begin. As Vlad said earlier nothing is set in stone in terms of the 'right way' its a preferred way.

I would also recommend looking at the main muscle groups in the face and how edge loops resemble those, it makes more sense when you see it this way, you then understand how things work and the benefits of edge loops for animation purposes.

Cheers
Jay

[Jay]

Ive attached a diagram of different types of quad possibilties. Obviously the first one is the desired one but sometimes you have to bite the bullet and go a different route. The second and third option work well in a manner of areas, obviously not overly desirable where deforming of the mesh is concerned but as I said sometime you gotta bite the bullet, and lastly the 5 sided poly, again not one for deforming areas (preferably) although it can be, but use sparingly, ideal for terminating edges when you dont want to add even more geometry.

Jay

[gster123]

Cheers Jay, I'll keep the drawing in mind and do a few scetches over some reference pics prior to opening maya in my next project.

Ive got the "Maya secrets of the pros" book, which covers a lot of the loops, muscles etc, but I really need to get into animating facial rigs etc as I've only ever animated "solid" object interations, I think thats when the the button will click in the old brain!

[Jay]

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/3812/muscleseo8.png

Heres a diagram ofthe facial muscels, look how the layout ofthe muscles resembles that of edge loops, around the mouth, the eyes and nose with the joining at the cheeks

Cheers
Jay

[publicFunction]

Here is my effort at this typically hard subject...

[marlonjohn]

cool, thanks for the reply vlad...
you havnt modeled in months!?! what have you been doing, i think it was in cg where i saw your work and it was too good to believe. if i was at that stage at modeling, i woudnt leave my computer lol..

ohh i finally see how it works now...thanks for that jay, cleared it up in my head alot.

mj

[marlonjohn]

wow jay, the two pictures are a great amount of help already especially the muscles to edgeloops..

heres another question from me which i have always wondered, when your model is in subdiv and then you check out the wireframe and it shows them extra lines.. what are they for? is there a way to get rid of them without spit poly tool? this has also resulted me into split poly tool to get rid of them but then ending up having a heavy mesh... thanks, marlon

heres a picture:

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9910/worksx4.png

[gster123]

Have you tries pressing 1 on the keyboard, I think, if I remember rightly, its the display quality of the surface (like in NURBS).

[marlonjohn]

hmm i dont get what you mean really but i tried what you said and no help really ... arrgh!

anyone else have any ideas?

[Jay]

With a SubD selected, pressing 1, 2 0r 3 on the keyboard displays different levels of detail, with 3 being the smoothest.

The patching you have around your nose is not uncommon in subd work but if you want to get rid of it, its a case of adjusting the polys, getting them to flow and/or join differently.

R@nSiD: Dude alot of work is needed to tidy the mesh up, get rid of those tris and 5 siders, its not really usuable right now for anything. I dont want to sound like Im putting you down, but dont rush it, take a step back a be a bit more methodical in your approach

Cheers
Jay

[publicFunction]

Jay, totaly true. This is my weakest area, and the human face is soo difficult to get 100% correct as we look at them everyday. I need to sort the areas around the mouth and eye. The tips you have given here wll help loads :)

[DJbLAZER]

If you have those extra lines that's because you have polygons that aren't 4-sided. If you want a totally "clean" sub-D-model you'll have to have only 4-sided polys.

[Jay]

DJ

this can happen with 4 sided polys, depending on there placement

Jay

[gster123]

Yeah Jay, ive had theose on a all quad model.

How do you go about getting rid of them? Do you bother or just work with them?

[Jay]

gster:

My workflow is this:

create the base mesh in poly and block it out as best possible adding geometry when and where necessary (obviously) then once Im happy with the overall base mesh and its all quads, be them N sided or normal quads I'll convert to a Subd and really go to town tweaking the model until Im happy or sick of it LOL. Then once thats done I'll go over the mesh again back and forth between SD and poly, ironing out bits and pieces that I feel may cause problems when creating blendshapes. Sometimes I'll re-route the edge flow around the cheek/nose area and jawline too, (around about where Vlad has marked on the mesh) just to make sure its all working for me, but as far as the 'patching' goes I dont worry really as they'll go once Ive done the final convert to hi res poly. Then its uv time. Once those are done I'll go back to the base poly mesh and create the actual blendshapes especially since the mesh is so low, it makes the job easier. Again I'll jump back and forth between Sds again while creating the shapes so I can check the forms of the expressions.

Once Ive done all my shapes I'll save two versions out, one with all the shapes in Low poly and then one set thats been converted from a SubD to a hi res poly version ready for animating

if you feel the need to re-route edges etc try the spin faces script from highend3d its a time saver, youcan select two faces at a time and spin them in another direction without recutting geometry

Hope this is clear
Cheers
Jay

[DJbLAZER]

Originally posted by Jay
DJ

this can happen with 4 sided polys, depending on there placement

Jay

Really? That's strange, since the wire in sub-D should be exactly the same as the polywire with the difference that it's smoothed. So if my model has all quads it shouldn't touch the wire... I mean it shouldn't add more lines..?

[Jay]

MarlonJohn:
As asked for...

DJ: As you can see four sided (possible from NGons causing the patches)

Cheers
Jay

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4637/meshtn4.jpg

[vladimirjp]

might as well post this.
this thing helped me out a lot when i was learning to model humanoid heads. its a great ref for clean and rigging-friendly face modeling

[arran]

Hey - excellent idea for a thread Jay - lots of useful info so far.

:beer: :beer:

I thought I might post this low poly zombie which I have been working on for the last week. the ears haven't been attached yet.

it would be good to hear any advice for working on game characters as well.

[DJbLAZER]

Originally posted by Jay

DJ: As you can see four sided (possible from NGons causing the patches)


I see that it's dividing the four sided sometimes yes... but I wonder why... that's just making it less clean to look at. But what do you mean with "possible from NGons casuing the patches"? An NGon usually means a polygon with more than 4 sides and as far I can see this model has only four sided polys.

[publicFunction]

Originally posted by arran
it would be good to hear any advice for working on game characters as well.

Mike would be the best man for that, but from what I learned on my 8 monh stint on an Indie Project, was if a texture can do the job don't model it. The eyes for example can be part of a facial texture, so there is little need to go into mass detail on the face, save the poly count for something else.

If you have Steam and own HL2 get the SDK and have a look at some of the models (7,000+ polycounts), the textures are great and if you have XSI you can import them for a more detailed look. Modelling for games is all about limitation and your budget. How many polys we can spend on each main character? How many polys we can spend oneach secondary character? How many polys the engine will allow on screen at anyone time? the list is endless. But hey thats why Art Directors get paid the big bucks :p

[Jay]

DJ

Go back to page 1 of the thread (I think) you'll see a layout of polys I did for this thread, N Gons are there...

Vlad: thanks for posting that up, I have that too, I believe Stahlberg had his 'fingers in the pie' on that one, in fact yes it mentions it at the bottom of the image. Its a good image to use. I started out looking at that and stuff by Bay Raitt (The Edge Loop Master) and just worked my own theory from the two.

Arran: Great stuff, we should mix the thread up with Game and Hi res meshes, Im sure people would apprecaite it here. And yeah lets give Mike a shout

MIIIIKEEE!!

Cheers
Jay

[arran]

thanks for the tips R@nSiD.:beer:

Yeah, Ive got HL2 and have been meaning to download the sdk. I don't have XSI, but I remember that some guy had imported a half life model into maya a while back...

It'd be good to see some other low poly models in this thread.

[marlonjohn]

Sorry bout the late reply, had to format computer and reinstall everything :S what a hassel, luckily i backed up my maya things ;)

Thanks jay, appreicate it ;) this will help me alot for when i start to model lower res models. especially this topology i like even more, soo smooth and clean lol.

hey R@nSiD, are you telling me there is a way to see HL2 models? how awesome! where abouts can i get sdk...

marlon

[arran]

I just happened to be looking in to it a minute ago. It's still a bit beyond me, but I might give it a go this weekend.

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Modifying_a_Source_Model_in_Maya

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/SDK_Installation

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/SDK_Docs

[Jay]

Hey Guys

Nice SDK stuff but a little off topic, try not to let it spiral...

Cheers
Jay

[arran]

ok - let's see your palms!

just wondering how you resolve the underside of the hand - this is a picture of my palm from the current challenge - keep in mind i haven't really done too much to it yet, but I am just curious to see how others have handled the same area.
:beer:

[Jay]

All the best with it Arran

Jay

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/4888/handtopomh5.jpg

[arran]

cool! cheers Jay! :beer:

[DJbLAZER]

And here's a low poly hand I did a while back ago.

[publicFunction]

Jay,

Much love to you. I don't think you really know how much this sticky is helping.

Thanks a lot from everyone...

[Jay]

R@nsid

thank you, it's not a problem.. have fun with it all,

Jay

[99GsTurbo]

nice hand jay lol

[Lt Jim]

Fascinating stuff here! Good to see the mysteries of polygonal face modelling put into simple terms!

[gster123]

Hey Jay,

Any chance you could post that Ear that you made as ears are a pain in the ear!

[vedic kings]

here my wire:)

This head is Krishna, off the thread Bhagavad Gita.

http://star.walagata.com/w/vedic_kings/wirefsm.jpg

[DJbLAZER]

And here are some wires from my devil guy.

[Jay]

Steve

Here you go. One ear. Im not sure how you'll be able to decipher the direction of the polys as its a little jumbled there.

The ear was made from 8polys starting on the side of the head, then basically extruded and spun faces to get stuff into position as a subd. This way I dont cut into the head itself and end up with unecessary tris.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8110/earwd6.jpg


VedicKings:
Looks very nice, my wife is a Hindu and we have a couple of these in the house, the expression is very good, the serene smile. Watch out for the 'topo' around that pole area on the cheek, the polys differ quite a bit on the way toward the mouth, try and keep them as square as the model will allow, this way your uvs will be less of a headache. Thats basically a rule I try and stick with on most models, obviously there are exceptions though.


DJ:
Interesting looking dude. My crit would be to bring that forehead further forwards. Get some references to check the alignment with the cheeks. I know its a Devilish character but if you keep to the rules of anatomy it will turnout for the better in the end

I had a fiddle where I think you could improve, hope you dont mind

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5908/headwiresfh5.jpg

Cheers
Jay

[vedic kings]

Originally posted by Jay
VedicKings:
Looks very nice, my wife is a Hindu and we have a couple of these in the house, the expression is very good, the serene smile. Watch out for the 'topo' around that pole area on the cheek, the polys differ quite a bit on the way toward the mouth, try and keep them as square as the model will allow, this way your uvs will be less of a headache. Thats basically a rule I try and stick with on most models, obviously there are exceptions though.


Hey Jay:)

Wow a Hindu wife! You are a lucky man:bow:

I worked more on the mouth area, as you pointed out, which I think looks much better now. I also worked more on the head overall shape and flow of the wires.

What do you think?



http://star.walagata.com/w/vedic_kings/kh4.jpg

[arran]

vedic kings - this should explain -

http://forum.simplymaya.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24218

oh, and your mouth is looking much better.:beer:

[vedic kings]

Originally posted by arran
vedic kings - this should explain -

http://forum.simplymaya.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24218

oh, and your mouth is looking much better.:beer:

Wow the "Bot" thread, I thought Aned90 was being weird, but now I know, thank arran.

[Jay]

VK:

theres been alot of Porno spamming going on here so be vigilante. Its just some jackass trying piss everybody off. Just report the posts if you see one, they'll get bored eventually.

Anyway, this job is looking good. I took the liberty of drawing over your mesh, to help with the ear, the red is how I'd redirect some of the edges the green is the 8 polys I'd use forthe ears and the blue id the kind of shape you want to extrude from, these are purely suggestions from my pov, somebody else may find it useful if you have your own way of doing the ears.

Cheers
Jay

[vedic kings]

Originally posted by Jay
VK:

theres been alot of Porno spamming going on here so be vigilante. Its just some jackass trying piss everybody off. Just report the posts if you see one, they'll get bored eventually.

I'll do my best to report them.

Anyway, this job is looking good. I took the liberty of drawing over your mesh, to help with the ear, the red is how I'd redirect some of the edges the green is the 8 polys I'd use forthe ears and the blue id the kind of shape you want to extrude from, these are purely suggestions from my pov, somebody else may find it useful if you have your own way of doing the ears.

Cheers
IMG]Jay

Thank you for taking the time to point that out, it helps. But there are many ways to loop your models, but your way works good, heres an update on the head and ear.

[vedic kings]

opp.

[vladimirjp]

ears are always a pain to stitch.
i dont even bother paying attention to the topology in ears anymore. as long as it looks good. if it were me i would eliminate a lot of those edges that are so close to each ther where the ears are connecting to the head. ngons work well in an area like that.

here's my contro to this. its my current wip. typical comicbook hero head guy.
i went n-gon crazy in areas that stay planar all the time, or areas that normally have funny creases in the face. it easier to get away with them that way.
---------------
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/172/363074320_cd313d1788.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/150/363061109_a7d9f03561.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/181/363061107_ef5f75cfe0_o.jpg

[Mickeal_alex]

Wow! Man your really good! How long have you been using maya?

[vladimirjp]

for a while now.
:blush:

[younglion]

thats a nice model but it looks like xsi to me but of course i could be wrong. btw nice thread

[vladimirjp]

yup. its done in xsi.

[Wishbonekenobi]

Here's my t-rex W.I.P. from another thread... pretty much all quads I think...

[vladimirjp]

pretty nice model.
the area near the eyes look a bit cluttered.

can we also post only base mesh wires.

its hard to read edge flow on a smoothed model in maya.

[Wishbonekenobi]

yeah it can get a little cluttered but I don't want to loose the deinition. This is my base mesh, I didn't run a smooth at any time. I will use it on a smooth proxy later because this is suppose to be a very high res creature.

[vladimirjp]

Originally posted by Wishbonekenobi
yeah it can get a little cluttered but I don't want to loose the deinition. This is my base mesh, I didn't run a smooth at any time. I will use it on a smooth proxy later because this is suppose to be a very high res creature.

are you joking? its obvious its a poly smooth. come on... u dont get points fpr mesh density hehe.

[Wishbonekenobi]

No I used some nurbs modeling and my the shrink wrap technique I talked abouth in the other thread. The way I made the topology even was by adding edge loops. also some of the shrink wrapped parts are from nurbs patches. The head was modeled basically vertex to vertex. I took a long time on every tooth doing extrude faces and adding edge loops and moving points. I never applied a smooth to anything. If you read the hyper realistic creature creation book it talks about how you souldn't use smooth's because you loose some control of the modeling...

[Wishbonekenobi]

here this is a close up of the base mesh...

[Jay]

Yeah a base mesh would be ideal really for this thread as its the starting point for the model itself albeit polys, subds, nurbs or even Lego! And Vlad is right, no points for a dense mesh LOL

This way its easier to help those interested in topology, about edgeflow techniques and how to set up a character for possible animation by optimizing the mesh in all areas, particularly those that will be deforming. Also taking in the importance of keeping uvs well balanced too for really good texturing and to avoid stretching, and more importantly a lower mesh will help with editing them instead of going insane!

The t-rex is a good model but perhaps you could lose a few edges, theres a bit of bunching on the thigh toward the top, I think you could lose evry other row of edges right now, but keep the deforming areas to four or five rows.

Do you not have a lower resolution of the mesh? The last image looks the same, just closer. I think the teeth should be modeled separately too, thiswill be easier for rigging too

Cheers
Jay

[Wishbonekenobi]

there's no lower res. it was stiched to gether with the topology seen here. mayby you're right about loosing some edges. I usuall wait till I finish the model and get it how I like and then see what I could loose.

[Jay]

Hey Wishbone

Yeah sure, it will help you for sure later on, uvs and all that stuff...

Cheers
Jay

[gster123]

Not too sure if I should post this in here, but for me it goes under the "topology" research, its a series of videos from youtube going over drawing for anatomy study, which i'm sure will be helpful to everyone creating human models in 3d.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=RivenPhoenix

I cant take credit for the link as I got it from a post on ZBrushCentral, with the thread started by Cannedmushrooms.

Hope its ok to post this here and its useful to everyone.

[Jay]

Great link Steve

I think everyone would benefit from a little '2d work' it really is the basic understanding of creating good form albeit 2d or 3d, clay sculpting is a good one too if anyone has a good link to share

good stuff
Jay

[t1ck135]

going back to one of the first posts about facial muscles, here is a nice little flash movie that lets you overlay each of the individual face muscles over the head to get a better idea of where they are and what they do. There's also info on expressions and which muscles are involved in what:

http://www.artnatomia.net/uk/index.html
(click the application link to the right)

Si

p.s, it runs as an swf flash movie so you 'can' (even though I wouldnt condone it other than for personal use) grab a copy from your browser cache and use it offline as most of it is contained in the single swf.

[AnthonyCg]

A quick question...
What if I wanted to create a character with three eyes?
How would the edge loops have to look¿?

[Jay]

Well assuming you know how to create two eyes do exactly the same for the third, pretty straight forward when you actually think about it, just because its a third eye doesnt make the basic principles any different.

Jay

[gster123]

This might give you some idea

http://www.antropus.com/

In the galleries section theres a "triclopse"with a wireframe. The website is full of great little tutorials etc for modeling from, IMO a great artist.

As you can see, to echo Jays comments, the basic principles are the same.

Also as some advice that was given to me by Jay, try drawing/sketching out your mesh over a concept drawing so thatyou can see how the loops look, that way you wont get into a mess when your making your model as youve got some idea of how the geo flows.

[Falott]

thought I drop a pic too. edgeLoop might be not too perfect but it is working well. still needs some work.

[Mickeal_alex]

Nice model, here is mine, it isn't finished and i have a question.What was the base object that you used to model the ear?

[Falott]

base was the cap of a cylinder. but i really dont have a system with modeling ears. it´s just one big mess with adding and deleting edges. but after 3-4 hours i get something like a ear.

[lmner]

thank you everyone!

I can effort more and more

[AnthonyCg]

Is creating a body with 3-sided polys while using sub-ds a bad idea?
I've heard people argue that sub-ds are okay doing this even when rigging for animation.

[gster123]

The odd tri or n gon in the right place dosent make much of a difference. I personally try to keep it to all quads, just for ease of uving etc etc.

On another note, prior to maya 8 Mental ray wouldent render a sub D form a tri or a n-gon

[Jay]

For me its pointless doing tris on a subd, its just another ballache. Also its worth bearing in mind that any subd with tris etc will get turned into quads if you convert it to a poly, my point being you are going to have odd looking quads in areas you dont want them. So planning ahead can always be of help especially if you intend to rig and animate...

Jay

[bruce dwyer]

whn i model for a head i end up with about 6 to 8 poly's to make or attach an ear out of/to this amounts to many hours either multiplying and deleting geometry (we have all been there no doubt) is there a good amount of geo we should be tartgeting in this area

[bruce dwyer]

looking at the heads further up this page i would think that the good Dr has it with his three parrallel edges from the top of the nostrel arch to under the eye and across the cheek and from the corner of the eye running down the cheek

[Jay]

bruce dwyer

For an ear I usually give myself 8 polys to work from on the side of the head to extrude. Go to page 4 of this thread I posted an ear a while back.


The lines on the Dr are most likely added later. It was probably a bit of a mission to sort out where to place the extra geometry but knowing that Julian Johnson Mortimer did it, I doubt he had much trouble, he's a pretty cool 3d artist. But with the advent of Zbrush and mudbox adding the detail like this isnt really necessary now unless you havent got those bits of software of course

Cheers
Jay

[bruce dwyer]

he does draw them in later now that i remember the tut:bow:

[ctbram]

600 polygons (most in the ears).

[Jay]

ctbram

good going, though Id add more polys, this will help you control uvs a bit better too if you are goingto texture the model. Also sort the odd looking quad on the cheek out, that may cause problems.

Jay

[Some Guy]

Hey all,
Heres a head that i made today. I want to know if there is anything majorly wrong with the topology before i start detailing it more.

[arran]

Cool! that's a really great looking head someguy. :beer: the only thing that stands out to me are the polys on his nose - i might not have them come to a point like that - though on the smooth head it doesn't look too bad.

[Jay]

Looks good...

Personally Id lose the tris on the cheek crease area, Its a would-be deforming area, if you are going to do animation. Also for arguements sake I'd also lose the tris on the nose. But thats just me - no tris!

Cheers
Jay

[Some Guy]

Thanks for th advice :)
I've gotten rid of as many tris i could find. Unfortunatley some 5 sided faces have appeared but they aren't in any major areas.

[THX1138]

Add some new splits in these areas, and that should fix your problem, if thats where your concerned about.

[Mickeal_alex]

Cool head. Here is mine but i don't know if i set up the polys correctly

[Jay]

Mickeal_alex

Not bad but lots of room for improvement. I would get rid of alot of geometry on the face as it very cramped in there. Also have a look at some of the earlier posts in this thread on edge looping the mesh. The post previous to this is a good example by Some Guy, its a nice mesh to work on.

Its all just practice at the end of the day, keep at it

Jay

[Mickeal_alex]

I know i think i have improved a lot in the threat that i put on in the wip section. It's called Modelling a realistic head. CHeck it out and see if it's correct.

[Rociru]

Wow you guys are really good at Maya.

[gster123]

Thought I would post this in here as I feel it might be some use to people as I think the topologys not too bad.

Cheers

[BennyK]

Some tutorials I found:
http://www.highend3d.com/maya/tutorials/modeling/polygon/277-1.html
http://www.highend3d.com/maya/tutorials/modeling/polygon/243-2.html
I haven't tried the eye yet but it looks helpful.

I also have a question - What is the best poly formation around joints (for skinning purposes)? Obviously there's a difference between joints, so can you also post examples for different joints eg shoulder, elbow, wrist, neck etc.

[Jay]

3 to 5 loops around the joint areas are usually adequate enough.

thanks for the links


Cheers
Jay

[wokendreams]

This is a lowpoly face for a model im using as practice. Im taking a lot of adivice from past threads. It was box modeled. Feel free to tear it apart, thats why its in the topo thread.

Also, is it better to have tri's that follow muscle lines or not have muscle lines and be strict on mesh unity? :beer:

[Weyu]

Working on a male head right now, I want to get the topology as perfect as possible so that I can use it in my application to a 3d course.

Edit: And yeeey on my fourhundreth post here. :)

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h57/weyu/headcollected.jpg

[gster123]

Hi Woken,

I would try to keep it all quads, no tris, that way you can use the edges to define the loops of the face.

Weyu,

I would watch the placements of the poles, try to have them in areas that dont move when animated, the ones that stand out is on the nose, if the mesh is animated then the placements of them could cause funny problems with the mesh.

[Weyu]

I guess you're right I see 3(x2) poles that are on inconvenient places right now. I gotta change/remove them and add the ears.

Is there something else that looks off? Sometimes I have hard looking at my own work and find flaws.

Its hard to fit in time between work and friends, gotta be done before april tho. :)

[Jay]

Hey Weyu

I dont think the placement of the poles are that bad to be honest.

the one on the cheek is okay, its not placed in an area that will cause probs if you were to make it animatable (ie:blendshapes) the one I would look at and redirect the edge flow is th one near the mouth, Ive penned over your render, so you can see.

the forhead to from the nose could use a little tweak. Just bring the edges a little higher and terminate them as before. but I wouldnt worry too much with these areas until the whole head is complete at base level with an ear included, then go to town adding and refining the mesh. you'll see more areas to tweak as you go and want to improve later.

Try and keep the polys as near to square as possible too if you can, this will help immmensley in the uv editor.



Overall its a pretty good start

Cheers
Jay

[bruce dwyer]

i have been looking over this thread and thought it worth mentioning the fsce loops that form the arch around the mouth ... some have it right some have it wrong but my point is that it should run over the top of the nasal arch as in "weyu's" and not into the arch like a few of the previous ... it seems like a small thing but you will stare at it for days trying to work out why it just aint right and gees its a bugger to try and fix later (dont i sound like the voice of experience ... not posting drawing as the previous posts sought of show it;)

[Weyu]

Okey been working on the head, for better or worse who knows. I've also added ears to the model. :)

I've tried following your advice and I think I've managed to change the location of the pole on the chin.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h57/weyu/head05.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h57/weyu/ear03.jpg

[ColdWave]

Need some nose help ;)

[Jay]

Its absolutely fine, very similar to one of my own, just shape it out a bit more

Cheers
Jay

[ColdWave]

It looks fine for me from side and from top but from center view it looks crapp some how big unnatural dunno ... i already shape it about 1 h and still no effect :confused:

[ColdWave]

2

[Jay]

The holes are wrong, if anything too small. get some reference off google that should help

_J

[Weyu]

I think that the edge of the eye is looking to sharp, should be a smother transition to the actual head I think.

And the fact that it doensnt have a mouth is really creeping me out! :)

And yeah the hole of the nostrils are way to thin as stated before by Jay.

Looking at my work a few weeks after is kind of fun, I feel more pleased with it now then when I was working with it, finnaly I feel that I got a idea of how a human looks like, my first attempts were just patethic. :)

[ColdWave]

Need some mouth help now ... the nose looks good :)

[ColdWave]

2

[Weyu]

No No No, the holes are still way to thin, try to stick two fingers in your nose and se how far away they are from eachoter. :)

And yes the mouth is a real horror for all of us that dont have the topology of the face covered yet. I think that it look a bit to flat right now tho, it need to follow the shape of the head. I personaly think its easier when I think that some teeth are supposed to be behind that shape.

I hope it helped a bit, for more detail about the topology check this thread or google. :)

Best of luck!

[ColdWave]

two fingers in your nose ? wtf :D i can't get 2 fingers in my nose ... :blush: this is my size nose (rofl) i will check some topology ... some things .. i work on this mouth about 2 days now .. and still getting this fu*** shape ... :headbang:

[Weyu]

Okey, and well you should post your reference when you refer to it so that we dont have to wonder what kind of human that looks like that.

To me your nose looks like this. :)

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h57/weyu/nose-pencil-sharpener.jpg

While a real nose looks like this(And no its not me its just some random pic from google.:))

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h57/weyu/thumb-Me000039.jpg

And as you can see I'm ofcourse talking about the nostrils.

[ColdWave]

Here is my fist head done ... yeah it's not done :D i will get it into Zbrush and shape it till it gets good forms :)

add critics about everything ... i know the nose wholes are not right ... some more stuffs are not right ..... yeah i'm still newbie in Topology :) but i will learn k w8 C&C i will start my first steps into Zbrush so will be hard i think :):blush:

[ColdWave]

2

[ColdWave]

3

[ColdWave]

And one final thing your all meshes looks gr8 . I hardly try to keep my mesh low and to look good but it looks like crap ... ok when i smooth my head it's a little bit find ... but yeah it's shitty some tips need ... I know i have to get rid of triangules and five side faces ... i have to edge loop i try to do that but the result still is this mesh :) i really don't like it un smoothed :angery:

[Jay]

I think you are on the right track, it needs some refining, go to the first post of this thread and have a look at my mesh, you'll see the loops in that

Jay

[ColdWave]

Originally posted by Jay
I think you are on the right track, it needs some refining, go to the first post of this thread and have a look at my mesh, you'll see the loops in that

Jay

10x Jay it's really hard for me it's about 2 weeks of work or smth like that ;) but i won't give up :bow:

[ColdWave]

Hi jay i started all over the model i read a lot of Topology about muscules on face and ... started learning a new technique for modeling a head with poly plane starting on the eye it worked BEtter than my old technique with starting with nurbs sphere shape it and make it poly ... and it gets ****ed like my models up there ... ok see some progress and comment pls :) it's hard for me now to make soem beliveable head model but i will try this new way is way to easy ! and way to pleasant to work with

Best regards , ColdWave

[Jay]

Coldwave

hey dude..!

well thats looking better, I'd personally aim for less polys at this stage but its still going well., so dont worry.

Just keep at it. We all have different ways that work for us as individuals so just carry on...if you are happy then it will show in the work - which it evidently is here

cheers
Jay

[ColdWave]

Ok Jay here is some finish model.

[ColdWave]

Ok
1. I will work for making the neck better
2. Work on the nose abit more
3. And some other small details

Some advices will be good tanks ...

here is the Mesh

[Weyu]

A minor note: The eyelids should not cast shadows on the eye.

Here is the way I like to do it without that gap.

First I select my eyeball and I make it live by hitting the magnet button. If you cant find the magnet just write "MakeLive;". :)

Then just select the vertixes you would like to edit and move them using the circle in the move tool. I usually move the vertixes one at a time.

There seem to be some things that should be changed regarding anatomy but a picture of a human explains that better then me. :)

[marlonjohn]

[EDIT]

have decided to make a thread, since i might keep on working on it etc

link is here,

http://forums.simplymaya.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30342

[mastone]

Just some general tips;

I usually start making the ears using nurbs curves and lofts when i have finished the basic lofts i template the meshes(there's a shelve button for it or i use layers) and start tweaking the curves.

I usually start from the sideview, using the create polygon tool (keep in mind that you're roughing out the shapes so keep the number of points at a minimum)tracing the outline of the head, which basically creates a big face, then i extrude the face and then delete the face, then i extrude edges letting the front and side image guide me, when the head is taking shape i use a mirrored smooth proxy at start tweaking whilest looking at refference pictures(see picture for example)

And last; Learn Nurbs, i to absolutely hate them because once you screw up it's back to the drawingboard, but if you master them your modeling will improve.

[ColdWave]

1) Need help !
- how i can get more respectful head look

[ColdWave]

2) it is suppose to be ingame character head

[Cory Chambers]

Hey guys,

I just recently switched to Maya from XSI and have spent the last 2 weeks studying topology, so this is a perfect thread. Other than an issue with the ears, let me know what you think.

Thanks

http://www.coryjchambers.ca/forumPosts/progress2.jpg
http://www.coryjchambers.ca/forumPosts/myaWireFrame.jpg

Feel free to check out my portfolio and reel. Everything on there was done in XSI before the switch.


www.CoryJChambers.ca (http://www.coryjchambers.ca)

[septopus]

hey cory, saw u on xsibase :p

the head looks good like i said.

corners of the mouth, and the eye tear ducts, those are hard to get right. but your topo is clean enough. nice work. where the earlobe meets the jaw line could use some tweaking too.

cheers

[Cory Chambers]

Hey Septopus,

Sorry I hadn't replied on xsibase yet, but thank you very much for the suggestions on the mesh as well as the tips on good maya forums! Although I'm still not super happy with the way the the mesh around the ear, I think it looks decent.

http://www.coryjchambers.ca/forumPosts/progress3.jpg

Thanks again,

Cory

[septopus]

the ear itself looks good. but where it meets the jaw may not deform right. i can tell,

there's a few wireframe templates in this thread u could use as ref

[Jay]

wow I actually have time to examine a mesh....

Cory:

Yeah the mesh is looking good. the only thing for me is the pole just off to the side of the nose on the upper cheek. I tend to stick mine more toward the side of the cheek as the area doesnt deform in a 'micro' way - unless I can eliminate it altogether. the rest is good, perhaps a few tweaks near the lip corners too jsut to give it some more meat

Cheers
jay

[3dStudent]

Was going to start a thread in WIP for my Vegeta. But as my main problem (at this stage) is topology going to post here too.

I know tri's and poles and 5 sided polys are bad. I just dont get how to fix it (I cut those 5 sided polys in half and end up with a quad and a tri) Heres vegetas Upper half.

To pre-empt suggestions about his hair line, I AM going to extract his hair, his gloves, his chest armor and his boots. - Just havent yet. It's all one mesh ATM.

[3dStudent]

My biggest problem is when i try to add creases, am I supposed to be keeping a nice even base mesh with equal sized quads and then take my .obj into something like Zbrush to add muscular definition and hard creases around the nose and such? or am I nearly doing it sort of right?

[CGWolfgang]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking to get a few CNC's with this model. I'm at the refining stage and could definitely use a few pointers.

[NextDesign]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking to get a few CNC's with this model. I'm at the refining stage and could definitely use a few pointers.

Hi Wolfgang. It looks pretty good. The topology needs a bit of work though. See my paintover. I've also made a list of the little things that look a bit "off" to me.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c30/NextDesign/sm/HeadPaintover.png

1. Jaw line needs to be more pronounced.
2. Cheek bone needs to be better defined. You also have a little crease just above the end of the green line I've painted.
3. Eyelids! Most beginners leave them out. Don't!
4. Put in the tear ducts.
5. The ala is too sharp. (http://tinyurl.com/39rr4gp) The ball of the nose should also be more pronounced.
6. There is a slight line here caused by the frontal bone of the skull (http://tinyurl.com/3yvah2f)
7. The contour of the head should be changed slightly. The area beside the eyes needs to be move back. This will also make the eyebrows be more pronounced.
8. Laugh-lines. These should be very subtly added in, as they can cause your character to look old!

As I said, it looks good. Just some nit-picking :)

[Mickeal_alex]

Hy guys, this is the topology that i use on most of my characters, here i have a next gen character that i finished on the left and on the right is the high rez version of that character.

[joni.giuro]

I just started my first organic modeling project and then I found this thread, perfect :)
anyway here it is. I decided to start with a cartoony face because I thought it would be an easyer start.

[Jay]

Excellent Joni Giuro, very very clean. The polys on the side of the head are there too for an ear.....good stuff

Jay

[Vortexx]

What is the easiest poly shapes to use to start the head?

[Jay]

Its preference at the end of the day, I personally start with a cube

J

[Vortexx]

Thanks Jay

[Johndoe050]

Thanks Jay for opening this thread. I didn't realy know how to start modeling a head but this gives a little more insight. So I started with a male human head last night because i am also entering the Lopoly gamecharacter contest. This is what i got so far. Its a little ruff still but maybe you coulde give some pointers.

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8324/topohead.jpg (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/topohead.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[goggles]

Hi, i am trying to finish this game model topology but having problems at the hair area. As you see on zbrush screens i have deep strokes on the hair part, and was curious how it was going to look like (after normal mapping ) if i had a round mesh retopologized at the hair area. So i decided to get hard corners and edges, and tried to get the overal shape in more detail in that hair area. But when UV mapping i am having problem getting a good one. Do you think hard edges and corners are causing this or is it the uneven sized polygons, hard edges and bad edge flow?

What is your suggestion on making the hair? I didnt detail the naked body on lower body, so i thought it would be useless to get the head retopped without the hair. I am trying to go one piece with every part of the body. ( Don't know if this is good for game engines and geo). So i am open to suggestions on makin the hair.

[NextDesign]

A simple round mesh wouldn't look good, as normal maps do not displace the geometry, they only change the light behaves when it hits the surface. Therefore, if you were to look at the front of your character in game, all you would see is strangely shaded round mesh. What you have now seems decent.

With the UV map, it's all trial and error.

[Jay]

you can make the hair with a bit more detail just to help the Normal map out a bit...add extra geo but only what you can get away with. If its actually going in a game engine then you'll need to fins out specifics...if its purely for rendering purposes then go the who hog, more polys and a dispacement map.

[BigBadaBoom]

I would ask you to ignore the model, I focused on the proper flow of the topology. I know it is not perfect, but what do you think guys? All criticisms are welcome!

Thank you in advance.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2425/topology.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/99/topology.jpg/)

[Jay]

yeah thats a great start.

If I were to give you ten pence worth of advice, ad an extra loop from the corner of the mouth so you have 3 quads there instead of two, so 1 top one middle and one lower, as I have found over the years it eliminates probs when opening the mouth a bit better too.

Also the loops from the labial nasal area are very wide, I would bring those in a little more, that way you can add another loop to flow across the bridge of the nose, around the cheek and under the chin.

again great start...

edit: As for the poles, they're in good shape there. Alot of people (mainly inexperienced and copycat parrots) tend to shudder at the sight of them and scream hellfire. But if the loops are correct anatomically then poles become just part of the geo as normal then a good artist is able to work with them without even worrying about them

Jay

[BigBadaBoom]

Jay, thanks for the reply and suggestions.

I added a few details on the geo, but I'm not very happy about what I did, especially on the area around the cheekbones (highlighted with green). Something is wrong, but I can't figure out what? What do you think about the loops from the labial nasal now, I think it's still to wide?

I think I'll start from scratch again, need more practice for sure.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8066/topology2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/topology2.jpg/)

[daverave]

Try adding edges were the red lins are and remove the ones with the blue dots............dave

[BigBadaBoom]

Thanks daverave, I'll try when I come home from work.

[Jay]

hey BBB

if I can direct you to my own thread....http://simplymaya.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35363&page=4

this is page 4 and the mesh has become more refined if you read it from start.

Also reference is gonna be your biggest help for the positioning of any of the anatomy. Asking me wont help as I dont know what you are looking at. Again, poles dont really matter once you get the loops right. So just concentrate on the forms right now and proportions, once you have that sorted the rest should fall into place

Jay

[BigBadaBoom]

Hi guys,

I was at the European Championships in Poland to support Croatian team, so I was quite absent. Thanks Jay, I started to read your thread, there are a lot of good stuff there. I'll definitely read the entire thread.

In the meantime I started a new model, I couldn't wait to come back and open Maya. :D Maya junky!! I know there is still much work to do and there are a lot of bad things in the mesh but...

Comments and criticisms are welcome.

Kindest regards,
Deni

[Jay]

looks fine you just need to define the character now. Depending on its features you may need to adjust the odd loop here and there

Jay

[mike88]

I'm practising on stylized character heads. I wanted to get some tips and pointers for my topology. I'm new to this so I know i have mistakes. I'm here to see how many mistake i've made and how to fix them. I've done two different character heads. Is one better than the other or do they both need alot of work?

[mike88]

The second character head.

[CollinBishop]

Mike. Looks much better. I think smoothing out the polys to eliminate lumpiness will help tremendously. Als your symmetry seems to have a seam in it. As for the flow it is decent. Not perfect but better. You did a good job on the redo.

[mike88]

Thanks chav, but just to be sure, are you talking about the three images above or the three images below? The reason why I say that is because i created my own thread earlier this week with the three images below and was wondering if you saw it. And so I thought you were talking about the three images at the top when you said (good job on the redo).

[Jay]

Its a bit bumpy and has way to much going on in the lower lips downwards. Reduce some of the Geo to allow better control of the forms first then add what you need late

Jay

[mike88]

Thanks jay, are you talking about the three images above or the three images below?

[Jay]

All of them, theres alot of topo going on right now that shouldnt be there until your shape is there in its simplest form.

Jay

[mike88]

Ok, I see..Thank you.

[bullet1968]

Hi Jay,

may I add this link. I know its Zbrush but some of the stuff I think will add to your fine tuts and directions. Amazing stuff, in particular he talks about 'planes' on the human face etc...good stuff.

Cheers bullet

http://www.pixologic.com/zclassroom/artistinaction/scotteaton/

[Wader]

Ok Guys let me have it. I'm really still learning. Just my second attempt number at heads)

Thanks again

Wader

[Jay]

@Bullet

nice mate, yeah Scott Eaton is a friend of a friend of mine in London. My friend is a CG supervisor at MPC and knows Scott who I believe was at Framestore the last I heard. I was asked by my friend to help out develop some courses he and Scott were planning to do as a type of college where people can go and learn 'proper' cg for film and tv, I was asked to help but it never came to fruition.

This particular part of that article is something Ive been preaching for years, if people dont wanna listen to myself LOL then read on.....its all production related...

http://www.pixologic.com/zclassroom/artistinaction/scotteaton/modeling/


cheers
Jay

[bullet1968]

Wow Jay that would have been an awesome project to be involved in! pity it didnt develop! I would have given it a go!

cheers for the link, will check it out later today!

cheers bullet

[mike88]

Ok, this is another attempt at creating a head. This head is low poly. Any tips and critique would be greatly appreciated.

[MamoruK]

So i'm going to try and model out a drawn character and would like some confirmation on the facial topology to make sure i have the general direction accurate as well as proportions because for some reason i think the skull might be too small...

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g250/MamoruK/MitsukiIntoReal.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g250/MamoruK/MitsukiIntoRealref.jpg

[daverave]

I would try to get my main edge loops some thing like this................dave

[MamoruK]

awesome thx dave!

[daverave]

The picture is slightly out on some bits you might want to swival or move parts of the side face to match better..........dave

[MamoruK]

yea i still gotta edit some things the original drawing is from a friend. didnt tell him i was gonna use it for a 3D model though so he just rough sketched it :P

[sampson01]

Here is the topo on my first attempt of my head.

[CollinBishop]

Sampson. You are going to want to loop the forehead geo around down into the mandible and downward towards the chin. This will create proper jaw flow. As it stands on that head it doesn't flow properly in that area. This is why you are getting the tri's on the right side of the orbital. Not bad at all for a first attempt.

[Jay]

He could actually just lose two of the loops there. he has what I call a four sided tri, where three loops on the base of the poly converge at the top to form the point of the tri shape leaving one loop on its own. It would be better to join the top point/edge to meet the middle point of the 3 at the base then delet the remaining loops and edit accordingly. have a look at my diagram, as crude as it is it should make sense

Jay

[Jay]

Personally I think its pretty good overall on that head however, its a little crowded in areas with loops etc that can be sorted quite easily.

I think the jaw is okay, Ive seen worse on here. Even with the flow you have now its correctable and very useable, I just think the cheek area below the eye and also the loops around the mouth are in need of love.

Ive drawn over the original with my new red pen, which is now green :)

less polys to work with and better control, Ive also hinted at the brow area in terms of poly shape etc...

hope it helps
Jay

[sampson01]

thanks Jay. that was an easy fix... but the ear portion of this model was like going for a root canal with no anesthetic! Seriously, sometimes I would find myself just staring at the bloody thing for long periods of time wondering what the heck to do. Definitely put me off of doing another one for awhile.

[Jay]

Sampson, I know it may seem like a bit of a plug, but if you can, download the chef ramsay tutorial, I show how to create an ear using 8 polys on it.

J

[sampson01]

I will soon. I've wanted to for awhile anyway. I've got most of Kurts stuff. He taught me alot. I need some different tuts. Thanks again Jay.

[NextDesign]

Here's my topology for something that I've been working on lately.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c30/NextDesign/jmather_topo2012.png (http://simplymaya.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38667)

(Click on the image for more)

[bullet1968]

Well done ND...looks good, I dig the lip area looks nice

Cheers Bullet

[MamoruK]

looks good man. Y so many poly's though? Also what's up with the side of the skull?

[NextDesign]

It's based on scan data, and I try to avoid sculpting as much as possible. I didn't bother with the back of the head, as it wasn't needed.

[itzat]

Here is my mesh of Mila Kunis. I'm rather new at this so I could use some tips on the topology.

Thanks
Itzat

[Skalman]

http://i43.tinypic.com/30ms8ir.png
http://i41.tinypic.com/2dp4id.png
http://i39.tinypic.com/2a6102a.png
http://i42.tinypic.com/9huw0n.png
http://i43.tinypic.com/v7s36b.png

theese models are what i've been doing the last months. would love feedback, what's good/bad about theese? Thanks :)

[Skalman]

http://giovanniluccablog.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/human-head-topology.jpg

compare your model to this. your model looks fine but is missing some important loops, such as the smile muscle loop, and the face contour loop. You work from the forehead quads (and extrude them) all the way back to the neck. Look at the picture i sent you and imagine the forehead quads were extruded from the forehead and back to the neck. also you wanna have a circular loop around the ear.

also to make it easier you could make a loop around the nose (nose's definition) to make it easier for you to achieve other loops around that area. otherwice your face from the front looks great. try to get your loops together around the whole face, not just the front ! :)

[Jay]

The link you attached is a good example for creating a base head.....

Your stuff is okay, though it needs improvement in terms of loops and also look at as much reference of face as possible to obtain better proportions

Jay

[Skalman]

Thanks for the reply. Im working on it :D One day you shall see me making Avatar 03 ;) you are an inspiration to me :)

[Skalman]

http://i41.tinypic.com/2nsxeo0.png


not 100% happy with the topology in this one. I kinda tried out a few new things like having my eye going in a V kinda shape instead of a O, to get more depth in the eye and more quality on the sides, look closely and you can see what i mean. I tried to make the cheekbone more noticeable, there are some wtf's in the topology over there. I'm happy with the quality of this model though. :)

[Jay]

I'll do you a small paint over with some thoughts on my lunch break

Jay

[Jay]

well I didnt get a chance to mark any of the mesh up...sorry dude...

Anyway something I did without refs during some down time I had at work for two days, its not great though....Im going zbrush it also do some Mari and then get some time in arnold with it....

J

[NextDesign]

Looks like Goldfinger!

[Jay]

only in plumpness otherwise its nothing like Gert Frobe...

[Skalman]

well I didnt get a chance to mark any of the mesh up...sorry dude...

Anyway something I did without refs during some down time I had at work for two days, its not great though....Im going zbrush it also do some Mari and then get some time in arnold with it....

J

perfect topology in my untrained eyes, one question though, how do you deal with the polygons at the end of the eyes (lateral palpebral commissure, the part where the lower eyelid meets the lower eyelid, furthest from the nose)

I usually have some problems getting good realism at this part especially

[Jay]

Its not great, its clean though, thanks dude..again this is a around or just under two days at work without photo refs.

Eyes,,,well Im a reall stickler for quads so even the corners have a small set of them, then its just a case of tweaking until it suits your needs...attached a couple of closer images

ears attached too for anyones curiosity on those...

Jay

[CollinBishop]

Figured I would stick this up over here. This is the Cryengine topo pic in their manual. Could be useful for some. It at the very least shows edge-flow in red in a front orthographic view.

[Jay]

great thanks Collin. Its good to get a Game mesh on here for once, hopefully someone will find it useful. It looks like the layout is pretty standard except for the tris which are not really highly regarded in vfx

cheers
J

[NextDesign]

I dunno about tris, they have their uses. When I took a class with Steven Stahlberg I learned that they can be quite useful to create some more irregular shapes.

[Jay]

John

Im not going to gloss this subject so dont take it the wrong way young man...

For most cases in a vfx company..tris are really frowned upon, they wont go through a sanity/model checker in most cases. Its quads all the way. And yes we know every quad is divided into a tri at render time, but thats render time, not model creation or rigging and so on.

To be totally direct... Stahlberg is good... He isnt involved in VFX , he is more mmo and realtime online and all that, so tris arent going to be a limitation for him so he can get away with it.He is good at what he does, dont get me wrong and I learned a few things off him about 10 years ago with regard to subds, but thats as far as it goes. We have all got alot of respect for him as an artist as he is very very good, but as I said he doesnt work in vfx and therefore he can say about using tris here or there. He has reason to because of his line of work.

I mean this is the guy that puts five siders in a characters face because he simply cant be bothered to go around and tidy up ( he has even said this) he has also contradicted this too saying dont put these types of geo in deforming areas. Yet he does it.

This is why I said about tris being more useful for games and so on.

we could go around all day discussing the tri and the quad approach, but the fact is, quads are the preferred method for vfx - simple.

As you are a Technical Director you should be aware of this already


J

[NextDesign]

Yes, I understand perfectly fine, and I know that quads are preferred; I have worked in many different VFX companies. Hell, I wrote a checker to look for quads!

Notice however that I never mentioned that it's good for deformation or anything else. I only mentioned that it can simply create some nice shapes. Perhaps I should have added that once you have that shape, then of course, go back and refine the topology. (This is what I get when I post at 2 am...)

[Skalman]

Thanks for the pictures man :)
great job man once again, makes me motivated to go home and create some people

[Jay]

John, which VFX firms have you worked at?

J

[septopus]

tri's... quads... isnt it cardio day today?
:D

[Skalman]

http://i60.tinypic.com/df9efd.png
http://i58.tinypic.com/16iiqo4.png

[Jay]

Dude the topo is certainly getting there, you need to lose the loops in both areas where I suggested before...theres too much.

Also my trusty red pen has come out today to draw for you a skull so you can see the shape that the head needs to be. The skull is not round its almost a flat shape at the top that rise toward the back slightly.

I know translating from photos is difficult but I think a little more understanding of the anatomical side of things will greatly improve the head...

keep at it though!!

Jay

[Skalman]

Thanks alot jay for the drawing man!! really appreciate it :) thought i'd be finished with this model but nope (thats a good thing)! thanks again man

[NextDesign]

These are the things that I see.

1) There should be an extra loop around the mouth to the nose.

2) There is too many polys on the forehead above the nose. Try to terminate some of them. You have too many polys in general for the shape that you have now. Lowering the number of polys will make it much easier to tweak.

3) The pole on the temples won't smooth nicely. Try spacing out and redirecting some of the edges in that area.

In general, you want your faces to be as square as possible. Some times this is not possible, but it's good to try.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c30/NextDesign/sm/topo_tq_zpsf67d53f5.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c30/NextDesign/sm/topo_prof_zps49029365.jpg

[Skalman]

http://i60.tinypic.com/30upuhi.png
http://i57.tinypic.com/28lt4oz.png

did some changes, was hard to get rid of those nose-loops cuz they all are connected to important "detail-spots", also skull might still be bit too round at the very top? not sure.

this model feels so much cleaner now, and more details! wouldnt be able to point theese things out without your help, reply if you think i missed something or if i need further change

thanks again for the replies NextDesign and Jay!

edit: noticed at the throat of this model, in the end the polygons run into eachother kind of, might wanna change that also. would this be appropriate in this case do you think : http://i57.tinypic.com/30xhdoz.png ?

[Skalman]

new model, some challenges because wrinkles, this man is 99 years old!
http://i57.tinypic.com/wlrdia.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qpE5hNwi618/THq8HzLff9I/AAAAAAAAJUA/wfMcqw0dKqo/s1600/dobri+main.jpg

This project will have me focusing on hair and sculpting in mudbox, which i need practise on .... :)

[NextDesign]

Your proportions are quite off, and your topology has taken a step backwards in my opinion. Take a look at the muscles in the face, this is what topology is based on.

http://moon245.3dtotal.com/admin/new_cropper/tutorial_content_images/782_tid_fig02.jpg
(C) Peter Ratner

Under that beard is the same muscle flow as everyone else. You shouldn't have to change your underlying topology in order to match it to new characters. You simply augment them instead, cutting in more details when needed.

Also make sure you have reference material while you're working. However you must get the hang of looking at shapes and form in the perspective window rather than simply matching in the orthographic views. Take a step back and be critical on your model. Is his chin really that sharp? Probably not. Does it stick out that far? Probably not. Are his eyes that small? Again, probably not.

Also, I would highly recommend that you finish one project before starting the next. It always sucks when it comes to an interview and you don't have a single thing finished; only partially finished things.

[Jay]

Skalman

I think we already discussed those loops in the PM anyway and I have made my comments about too much geo in areas as well.

As for the pole on the side of the forehead, people have many opinions about pole placement, the side of the forehead is new on me LOL....its not an area that deforms like the rest of the face...in fact its just skin slide in that area not really a muscle there to deform into something relevant....so its up to you on that one. Personally I'd leave it.

Faces are hard to do and to do right if thats the correct term to use. The more you do the better you will become and the more you will learn....especially from scratch...its always hard to do from scratch, you are heading in the right direction. Its only a matter of time before you get a grip on it from your own perspective and nail the good and bad in a mesh...and work out your own work flow....with or without a scan


Jay

[Skalman]

http://i59.tinypic.com/2uhyd6e.png
http://i60.tinypic.com/2yo377t.png
http://i59.tinypic.com/2m6aazm.png

thanks for the replies guys!
truth is i didnt have any side reference so i drew a side reference by looking at the character + the proportions, but im still not very good with getting them right, and my references messed up/didnt match with new references so i decided to try without a side reference, so much of this model is from my perspective and view on this character, which probably is why its so wrong in areas.

anyways with those new pics i've been using new references so the head will follow the head-proportions a litle more this time hopefully...

[lauris47]

It's my first try to create human with poly flow in mind.
I know some things can be done better for sure.
I'm also wondering is thee any general rules for muscle topology ? Every individual is different, so flow is bot different as well, I guess. What are main mistakes in my topology ?

[Greenbullet]

Would love to have your thoughts on this head model
Think I have got the edge flow partly right but to me there's something about the head that doesn't look right.

[lauris47]

Would love to have your thoughts on this head model
Think I have got the edge flow partly right but to me there's something about the head that doesn't look right.

I'm not expert myself, but you could add more flow lines around mouth area - if you plan to animate it somehow. If not, it doesn't really mater. For shape, just get some inspiration of face you think is attractive, think each part separately, adjust it point by point then get back to general shape.

[ivkov]

There is a rule in hard surface modeling, about not to place vertices with valence of 5 on curved surfaces either convex or concave, in other words not to have poles with more than 5 edges on curved surfaces. But then we always see them on organic models which are all curved and smooth like the faces and body of our characters. The question is, if we have poles with 5 edges, how curved is a curved surface in this rule?

[Jay]

a great point to raise Ivkov

Ive seen some stuff at work that would make your toes curl LOL

Models now are becoming more and more dense, especially as engines like arnold are handling extremely hi poly counts at render time. The 5 edge is going by the way side a little. When we were using smooth poly and Subds on characters, the mesh was lower in terms of resolution so when smoothed, the algorythm was trying smooth between the polys of a greater width so therefore the issues of pinching were increased because of the curves pulling in those 5 different directions of edge flow, but now with the higher poly count there is less chance of this issue arising because the polys are more and the distance less. That said, if you can avoid a point to 5 edges situation then all the better for the model anyway. And on characters, avoid at all cost in any area that deforms, eye lids cheeks, nasal labial folds, mouth corners and so on...

its just practice to achieve it, once you have it nailed then you are golden!


Jay

[Jay]

so some new topology images!!

Work has been very busy for a while and also with new tutorials being done now, Ive finally had some time to be able to sit and do some new bits. This is a retopo mesh over a scan mesh. You will notice that there arent any major edgeloops in terms of muscle groups.This mesh currently has 6203 polys so still very low.
I few months back I finished digi double work on Marvels Dr Strange and learned a hell of a lot in terms of how the meshes are created and dealt with right now. We were basically using an in house mesh with a base poly count of around 18-20,000 polys, this in turn is used as the sculpt mesh which would obviously get divided right up, sculpted, and then the mesh in maya would be updated from this, still using the base. We would use either a blendshape to transfer the difference or transfer attributes on the base mesh, just depends on the uv situation as well. The base mesh would get aligned to a scan of the actors using Wrap X, which is an amazing tool. have a look at the demo stuff here, Im sure some of you would have seen it. http://www.russian3dscanner.com/ in turn the mesh would still require some light adjustment in Zbrush. We would have a muscle group texture map to show where to align and keep the mesh looking 'correct' but still keeping the character looking like the actor.

anyway I'll be working it up to a decent res, with some projection work over the top so I will keep it the updates coming as soon as I have something I feel I can show you

cheers
Jay

[Jay]

So a bit more on the mesh update

the mesh on the left has one subdivision and if thehead and the feet were present I figure we'd be looking at an ideal base mesh to begin subdividing in Mudbox or Zbrush and then start our sculpting at around the 20k mark as far as polys are concerned as I said before, then as mentioned in the previous post we would then update the base mesh over in maya with the newly sculpted one using either a blend shape or a transfer attributes, using the the closest point and and vertex position attributes.

I will try and get a freebie tutorial done for the site as it would only take like 5 minutes on a video to explain the process.

images below of the current update after a reprojection of the scan in zbrush at 2 and 3 levels of subdivision

Cheers
Jay

[Jay]

and here is the current mesh with a subdiv level of 4 and still only comes out at 179k polys. Again it would probably balance better had we attached the head and feet...but its a just a rough idea of what can be achieved

cheers

Jay

[pochte]

and here is the current mesh with a subdiv level of 4 and still only comes out at 179k polys. Again it would probably balance better had we attached the head and feet...but its a just a rough idea of what can be achieved

cheers

Jay
Looks good, but something about the shoulder blades bug me.
Might be they jut out too much, not sure.

[chk2033]

Looks good, but something about the shoulder blades bug me.
Might be they jut out too much, not sure.
hmm your right I kind of noticed it also but not really sure though.

[Jay]

An update to this post after a very long absence.

I can see the point of the blades from the comment. But bear in mind this was taken from an actual scan and reprojected. With the arms up like this and slightly back you are actually witnessing skin compression in that area. I'll dig this out later on and do some close ups.

cheers for now
Jay