Patrick Stewart

[Perfecto]

Going to attempt to model a head to look like someone. I'm choosing Patrick Stewart since he's bald, well mostly. I don't want to deal with hair. I'm not much of an organic modeler so this won't go too quickly. If I like the way the head turns out I might model the body.

[daverave]

I still have Ian McKeller that I have not finished we could do Xmen,,,,,LOL...Im sure you will do well...........dave

[Perfecto]

Haha, X-Men, that actually sounds cool. I know star trek and such has been done a bazillion times so I was kinda hesitant to refer to Patrick as Picard. Perhaps we could make this a community project. People could model X-Men characters and then everyone could send you the models so you can put into a final scene...just a thought. I'm sure most everyone on SM would trust you with their models.

[Perfecto]

Found a couple of images I think might work as references. I cropped them down to just head profiles and they seem to line up pretty good.

Here's my image plane setup.

[mastone]

good luck...

[daverave]

Sounds like a good idea perfecto, lets see if any one else is interested. may be a poster. Any way if there is no other interest I could carry on with mine and do a head to head shot...........dave

Edit:This is how far I got with him

[eye_grafix]

Cool idea - I love Xmen and StarTrek even if it was "before my time" LOL
I hope it turns out well.
@dave Good start but the nose is a bit to big. :-D
---Peace---

[daverave]

Ian McKeller has a big nose google him...........LOL.....dave

[Perfecto]

I love your poster idea. Could even expand it to a Marvel poster if alot of people were interested. That would allow more character choices.

Magneto is a good choice, you could even model him with his helmet, that way you wouldn't have to fool with having to make hair. Nice start so far.

[tweetytunes]

I might have a go at the film version of night-crawler - just for the fun of joining in.

And sorry Patrick Stewart will forever be "CIA Deputy Director Avery Bullock" for me now (American Dad rules)

[Perfecto]

I'm done for today. Here's what I've got so far. I still have a lot of tweaking to do on the nose eye and...well all of it really haha.

[tweetytunes]

you got the noise down thats for sure - you can tell who it is

[bullet1968]

Wow Perfecto good bloody start!!! good luck with it mate!

cheers bullet

dave: Yes he does have a rather large hooter LOL

[daverave]

Just to show that I am on the case started the helmet, still a lot to do with it, from what I have seen his ears get squashed into the helmet will fix at the end...........dave

PS. you are B*** fast perfecto

[Perfecto]

Helmet is looking good daverave.

I did a little bit this morning but now it's time to eat breakfast and get my butt moving. Busy day today. I thought I would finish this morning but it's going to take a little more time than I thought.

I've got about an hour or two of work left. I've got to work on ear lobe and ear shape including adding a Y shape to the inside. I have to finish the head shape, including the noticeable ridge along the front middle and the side profile especially the transition from the nose to the forehead. The eyes also need more tweaking, the jaw line needs more tweaking, and I need to make all the major dents and bumps. Here's another update shot though.

[daverave]

Finishing of the helmet..........dave

[Perfecto]

Very nice looking helmet. It's looking really great. Can you rename this thread to X-Men or something? That way anyone that wants to model a character can just add it to this thread.

[daverave]

Thanks you perfecto
Im trying to go fast because I know you are like a steam train once you get going and great quality. How meny times have I posted then noticed the the model still needs tweeking......dave

Edit:I think there would be some hard edge modelling also, the centinals, xmens air craft and scenes

[bullet1968]

you two are doing very well...this is going to be an interesting event! and now tweety has embraced Z it will get even more exciting!

cheers bullet

[daverave]

Bullet dont think you have got of the hook, you can set out the poster......LOL...dave

[bullet1968]

bahahahahahahaha I will plead ignorance your honour....

cheers bullet

[daverave]

I know you can draw bullet, all you have to do set out the poses (drawings) in A nice way, I can do the rest in photoshop but if some one else would like to join in and do the comp........dave

Edit:If this gets of the ground it will be like a little taster of what work will be like because you will not always do what you want but what some one is paying you..dave

[BabyDuck]

that is a awesome idea - a joint WIP. do the models have to be fully textured and all? i would like to participate - and sign up for the model of the sr-71 blackbird - something to hopefully look like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird.jpg
going to post once i have something to show - trying to find and fiddle blueprints into maya atm :banghead:

[bullet1968]

hmmm you will have to guide me dave...I honestly dont know what you mean...LOL honestly....and who said I could bloody draw!!!! give me a road to peg out and pipes to lay LOL.

go babyduck!!!!

[daverave]

Hi BadyDuck
Could you model the x men jet plane look simular to the blackbird see link below......dave

http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/X-JetCatalogPage.htm

Edit:Sorry Bullet must have posted at the same time, what I ment was set out a poster (drawings)so we have a idea what poses we might need, I think that would be the logical way to go

[BabyDuck]

dave, i can try that. you know any good place to find reference pics on how they modified the sf-71 for the x-men movies? or shots out of the movie itself?

[daverave]

Hi BabyDuck
If you google images x-jet you should get a lot of referances, link below for plan of the one used in xmen 3 I think..........dave

http://gselander.blogspot.com/2011/02/x-men-blackbird-jet.html

[BabyDuck]

dave, that is the x-jet of x-men 1 - the one in x-men 3 is almost identical to the x-men 2 x-jet. arghhhhhhh.

now i see what "do what they pay you not what you want" means - i did have some high res blueprint for the xf-71 including profile curves ....

oh well - trying for the x-jet from x-men 2 - since i have a pic that says its from x-men 2 and no guess work which version it is ....

[daverave]

Am I bad, just glad you are taking part BabyDuck.........dave

[daverave]

Finished the helmet next the body......dave

[Perfecto]

Nice work Dave.

Here's an update of Professor X. The mouth/chin area isn't quite right yet as well as some other areas but maybe I'm being too much of a profectionist right now.

[daverave]

Nice work perfecto
Try bringing in more photos from differant angles, saying that I need to do that with mine. When you start texturing that will bring out a lot of the detail.........dave

[Perfecto]

That's a good idea. I modeled him from his younger years but now since this is X-Men, it might not look quite right haha.

[daverave]

Should have said that idea was from mayanic some time ago, still looking for more people to join in maya or zbrush (or any app) users, there are lot of xmen left to do........dave

[bullet1968]

Looks good Perfecto....keep it up man...I admire you guys who can do organics.

cheers bullet

[daverave]

Bullet I do understand that if you have a bad experence with organics it might put you of but from my experiance modelling is modelling I wish I could help in some way.......dave

[Perfecto]

Thanks Bullet, and I agree with daverave. Hard surface modeling, organics, it's all the same to me. The only difference is that you need the mesh to flow in such a way that the model can deform correctly for animation. Hard surface modeling you don't have to worry bout as much. For me, the key to organic modeling is knowing the correct topology. Like anything though, practice makes perfect.

[bullet1968]

I know you are both right, but for some reason a machine to me is so much easier than a face...like planes etc...its just imprinted in my mind...probably from when I used to make model kits (by the hundreds)...even though you see faces and bodies every day..I dunno LOL it just seems easier. Yes perfecto thats probably part of the problem...topology...I gues I will get there...once the Feb challenge is over I wont be in anymore challenges...I will finish Ramsay...I need to really get that one done. Being the worlds biggest procrastinator (though I work most hours LOL)...doesnt help.

Whilst scouring for babyduck (still looking) for the X-Jet....I found this page!!! wow and cheap too...some even in CAD!! dont know if its any use to you guys?

http://www.up-ship.com/


Dont worry dave, Im sure all of you will get enough questions from me and crits back to me in the future...I really want to do it in Maya first before I head to Z....


cheers bullet

EDIT: BTW dave...this guy on the site struck the master copy for the kit you posted.

[BabyDuck]

sry guys, been a while.

here is a update/beginning. started doing the body of the x-jet. missing 4 of the wings yet. and looking at the x-jet - lol about hard surface modeling - the only hard faces i see on the x-jet might be the lines around cockpit. unless all non-organic is considered hard surface - not sure.

46170

crits welcome - don't be too harsh - its my first model in years .... :mstickle:

duckie

p.s.: call me duckie - i prefer that over BabyDuck

p.p.s.: how do i insert a picture instead of the small thumbnail with the big preview thumbnail like all the other posts?

[bullet1968]

That looks good duckie??? LOL Im think of bloody David McCallum now......that looks sweet.

to insert pic....when you 'post reply' underneath you will see 'manage attachments' click on there and you can upload up to 5 images.

Looks ok for some one who hasnt ridden the Maya bike for a while!!

[BabyDuck]

thank you bullet,

and i do that - to insert the images as attachment i mean. but when i actually insert a attachment into the post it does the little little thumbnail - or do i need to attach an image and NOT insert it with the attachment button ???? oh and yes "duckie" is much better :)

duckie

[bullet1968]

see the attached duckie. When you get to the window pop up for attachments...browse the HD for the image...then press upload and wait...then scroll down and close that window...it should all upload fine.

cheers bullet

[bullet1968]

P.S duckie...its a screen grab? I do that then paste in 'paint' then just save as a jpeg and upload through the above instructions....they come out fine usually

[BabyDuck]

yeah it was infact a screengrab. did not notice that paint in win7 saves as png by default. saving out of renderview and saving as jpeg afterwards.

small update - added the wings and used the vray sun/sky for the render w/ gi. lights it up nice, but not really any better than hardware render :nerd:

and yay - the thumbnail works now - thank you bullet :mstickle:

duckie

[daverave]

Nice start Duckie
You were wright that does look very much like a blackbird, were did you get the refs?....dave

[bullet1968]

the blueprints.com dave...has a nice vector profile.

I dont know much about vray...or any ray besides the hot Aussie sun in Perth duckie....37°c again today and 40% humidity! its our 20th day above 30 and all next week 37° plus (I work outdorrs) aaawwwwwwww.

I would however suggest this...put a stage behind it...and I usually use an IBL (probe?) for the light...and have FG on low...it gives it a funky patchy colour..I like it but you might not LOL. For the stage (thanks ctbram) just a plane, extrude 2 edges up and then pick the edges ate the bottom of the wall you created and bevel. Gives it a better contrasting pic...just a suggestion mind you..

cheers bullet

[bullet1968]

Like this duckie....or similar...this is one of my concepts...a Hunter Killer...render in Mental Ray...FG on low...image based lighting (eucalyptus probe)...stage a nice earthy brown..one spotlight for shadows dunno why but brown seems to work on anything...just a tone change for different models...or it my old/bad eyes...I left it a bit bright I usually turn it down a tad..sorry

dave can you explain to me what you want me to do...e-mail me mate. I would like to have SOME involvement with you guys (noob or not)...even sweeping floors amongst you greats gives me a sense of belonging.

cheers bullet

[daverave]

Just a little update, I think I will have to make the bottom of his jacket and cape with ncloth, Bullet will get back to you tonight...........dave

Edit:I dont know why but I find it harder to model boots and shoes than say a face

[tweetytunes]

I dont know why but I find it harder to model boots and shoes than say a face

So do I - I hate feet full stop - Always have.

[bullet1968]

aaaaaawwwwwwwwww cmon tweety!!! ruddy hell mate...you KNOW you can do them...LOL

yeh dave no worries

cheers bullet

[BabyDuck]

dave,
reference is from marvel i believe it was from marvel.wikia.com. i am using the few pic of the plastic model of the page you posted from fantastic plastic.

bullet, if you found something on blueprints.com, let me know. if it is any better than what i got. - only problem is there is 5 versions of blackbird. 2 real: sr-71 blackbird, sr-71b blackbird and 3 x-men blackbird: xjet from each movie - but they are each called blackbird (no version number on them far as i know) :furious: well actually 7 versions since the sf-71 has the sister plane yf-12 for each version.

here is what i deal with (as seen in the first screengrab). as you can see the blueprints are not correct - besides the fact that they are fuzzy. but that is as best as i could find after a looong time searching. so i said screw it, and started - gonna have to get details and modifications in from the few pics from the movie.


cheese, duckie (as you brits say) :mstickle:

[daverave]

I think with models like this where there are few good scale references you just have to do the best you can, I have done the same with magnetos helmet I have not seen how they are joined together so they are not joined.........dave

[Perfecto]

LOL, boots harder than face? I used to hate modeling feet, hands, and ears too so I understand. Nice progress though. The blackbird is looking good too, nice work duckie. I should get some more free time tonight so I'll work on Xavier's body and/or wheelchair. I spent a little bit of time yesterday looking for references. I also searched for some references on storm. I figured I'd model a woman next and who wouldn't want to model Halle Berry right?

My son now wants me to model him too haha.

[daverave]

I think I will keep away from modelling the likes of Haily Berry at my time of life could be dangerous, my eye sight is bad as it is.........LOL.......dave

[bullet1968]

no duckie...all I could find were for the actual blackbird mate,,,nothing for thr s-jet and I cant remember which variant it was.

dave, you are right...it would be dangerous

cheers bullet (Im an Aussie duckie) LOL

[bullet1968]

hey dave...I know Im not really skilled enough for this BUT...how long is this joint WIP going for? I would like (even if its not accepted) to try and do a Sentinel...it hasnt got too many moving parts really and would be sinple for me as its not really organic....your call...I will try and do a setout pad for the figures and duckies plane tomorrow ok?

With the setout I really need an environment you might like...ie forest/city etc. Perfecto, will Charles be in a wheelchair or have an exoskeletal leg peice as per Wolverines cartoon?

cheers bullet

[Mayaniac]

Pretty good likeness there perfecto, that bust turned out well. And Magneto is looking good too Dave, and I have to agree feet can be a pain sometimes. It would be cool if you got some animators on board with this, and you all recreated a small 15-30 sec seen from films... maybe you could talk tweety into lending his nightcrawler model.

bullet... lol, I thought you had started calling everyone "duckie" for some strange reason... then I realised we had a "BabyDuck" member with over 1200 posts and I've never heard of him/her in my life... :( I need to frequent the boards more.

[daverave]

Good question Bullet
Me personaly would like 2 to 3 months to get all texture about four models but that might be a bit long for some people. Go for it bullet I will help if you need to rig it. will get back to you on the posters making the dinner at the mo.......little update needs more work on the arms let me know what you think.........dave

[bullet1968]

LOL steve...you bugger..no not me mate...I think duckie might just be a lady.

Ok dave...yeh of course I will need your help mate...Im not to crash hot at this stuff yet! I would say the creasing is ok..but please dont go the muscular look...I think comic books go too far with Arnies shape in superbeings...I think Ian and Patrick were actually fitting choices...not so much the 'older' look but they had the maturity and not a steroid junkie body...but still exuded power with their faces and words...if you know what I mean?

cheers bullet

[bullet1968]

Im doing this wrong arent I???

[Perfecto]

I'll be modeling Xavier in a wheelchair. As far as the length of this W.I.P., well considering cg movies usually take about 3 years I don't care how long this goes. I think "work at your own pace" is more than acceptable. That way people can have time to participate in other things like the challenges and such.

[mastone]

Im doing this wrong arent I???

Not if your making dr.Doom LOL

[bullet1968]

LOL thanks mastone......:P:mstickle:

[honestdom]

considering cg movies usually take about 3 years

perhaps they did, but not anymore.
about 10 months to a year depending on the shot count and number of post houses working on the movie i guess.

[BabyDuck]

here is a tiny update. worked a bit on the inlet up top of the xjet and the main engine intake. compared to everybody else i seam to make very little progress. for some reason the model got messed up - it would not mirror properly - whatever i did it did not mirror in the middle. workaround (don't ask): smooth the mesh, mirror, and then delete the smooth from construction history - that worked. oh well if maya wants me to jump through hoops then so be it.

[daverave]

Duckie you are going well, this is not a race, the only thing I would ask if you could change the shader to a normal gray so I can see the detail.........dave

[bullet1968]

Hi dave,

this si what I have so far...not much and of course I have room for improvement...attached are a couple of the refs I am using.

Cheers bullet

[daverave]

Bullet all I can say is Look at the eye shape on the ref and the nose, we will get there...dave

[BabyDuck]

dave, this what you meant with grey? gotta go to work .....

[bullet1968]

I shall try again LOL

[Perfecto]

Not bad bullet. I think you might improve it quite a bit by adding a slight curvature to the pieces around his head, not quite as dramatic as what I have marked in red but if you look at the reference, you'll notice they aren't quite flat. And then if you can bevel the edges (round them out a little more) so they don't look so sharp thay would help even more. Overall though, I think you're doing good. Just make sure you give your February challenge entry priority. I think your ship is pretty cool and besides, there's no deadliine for this wip :).

[bullet1968]

Thanks Perfecto...yeh I have finished the boat...I was doing this last night and a wee bit at work (trying to get out of the heat...Im exhausted). The only thing I didnt do on the boat was the racing harness, I just wont get time today....but thats ok its 99% done. Yeh I did bevel them but hadnt really finalised them (the headband) buit you are right..

cheers bullet

[Perfecto]

I did a little bit of work on the wheelchair the other day so I thought I'd go ahead and post the progress.

[bullet1968]

very cool mate.....very modern compared to my brothers LOL

[Perfecto]

Thanks bullet. The top of the bar that attaches/supports the arm rest isn't quite right but it's really hard finding references that show the details of everything clear enough. Especially underneath the seat. I'm going to rent the movie and hopefully it will show me what I need to see.

[daverave]

Nice update perfecto
I must admit it has been harder than I thought to get good references, I have not posted as I am fighting with zbrush and loosing..........dave

[daverave]

Looks like I have done nothing but the problem was I had the original in zbrush as subtools but I wanted to use uvmaster in the end I just reimported the base mesh from maya in one lot then polygrouped them this allowed me to use uvmaster. Also bean testing some normal maps to make sure I can add more detail in photoshop. Hope to have the clothing and helmet texture by tomorrow......dave

Edit: Im not that good in zbrush feel more at home in maya

[Perfecto]

That's actually not too bad

[tweetytunes]

nice progress by all - loving the model bullet has for ref - might just have to try and get that for real.

[BabyDuck]

perfecto, what size is the end product going to be, and which render are we going to use. and its only going to be a still? i think i decided against modeling all the details in - and rather add them with a displacement. gotta finish the model some more first before i can get to texturing though. we should probably use mental ray - unless there is something really cool about the maya renderer that makes it somehow superior.

not much progress to show - most is test renders on how to get my displacement map to show up properly in the renders.

duckie

[bullet1968]

Im gonna check in a store in Melbourne Tweety...I like it too...the shop I think is called Minotaur.....it has all the stuff like that.....heaps of comic statues etc...books etc.....been there twice now...excellent shop man..really cool place.

cheers bullet

[Perfecto]

perfecto, what size is the end product going to be, and which render are we going to use. and its only going to be a still? i think i decided against modeling all the details in - and rather add them with a displacement. gotta finish the model some more first before i can get to texturing though. we should probably use mental ray - unless there is something really cool about the maya renderer that makes it somehow superior.

not much progress to show - most is test renders on how to get my displacement map to show up properly in the renders.

duckie

Not sure what size but there's no rush. I'm assuming that if we do put together a final scene it would be rendered in MR.

[daverave]

Inspired by mastone but lacking his gift, trying to get the likeness of sir Ian McKeller...........dave

Edit: just a normal map from zbrush no fine detail

[bullet1968]

Maybe more definition in the nose?.....emulation is also a gift.

[BabyDuck]

dave, that does look nice. and since he is gonna wear a helmet, it does not matter if the detail is "just" a normal map - you won't see any contours anyway - except maybe the nose :mstickle:

p.s.: one thing you might want to add some detail to it is the tear sack - it looks kinda - aehm destroyed .... not the thing under the eyes, that is nice - i mean the corner of the eye thingy

[mastone]

Inspired by mastone but lacking his gift, trying to get the likeness of sir Ian McKeller...........dave

Edit: just a normal map from zbrush no fine detail

Me is greatly humbled , but thanks.

You're model is not a far way off it's getting pretty close actually, take a look at this image ( you probably have it already but this one stood out for me)
http://revistamonet.globo.com/coluna/files/2009/01/13janian.jpg
It could be because of the focal length of the camera but here goes anyways:
-His nose is big but there is a sligt curve in it
-don't work on fine details , I know it's fun and easy in ZBrush but it distracts your eyes from the overall shape, you have to see who it is without the details they are there only to enhance the model even further once you have it down
-I would make the eyesockets slightly smaller
-pull up the top of the head somewhat in Zbrush
-Pull down his chin
-Use the inflate brush to puff out some area's ( brow for instance)they seem a bit flat/harsh to me
-Split up the face in portions ( ie nose, eyes, ears, mouth etc) and use ctrl shift lasso select to omit the other stuff from view this way you only focus on one part until you happy with the overall shape and then go to the other parts, once you have the rudimentary forms in place look at it as a whole.

Good luck

[daverave]

Thanks Bullet still working on the nose, Thanks Duckie I know what you are saying about the helmet but I find doing the hair not to hard to do and I might have some shots without the helmet on. Thanks Mastone I have taken on board all you have said and am trying your suggestions. A little update tweeking of the chin, eye braw and eye duct........dave

Edit:I think I will do the fine detail in photoshop I think it will give me more control

[BabyDuck]

didn't have much time this weekend since grandkids were here. was playing around with rendering and compositing a bit - and managed to create a simple graph in maya composite to add a glow around the x-jet. hopefully next weekend i find some time to actually do something on the model itself :sigh:


cheers duckie

[bullet1968]

wow that looks cool mate....something I need to learn is composoting...

[daverave]

That does look nice Duckie, grandkid tell me about them. I will try and post some thing in the next few days been playing with mudbox I like it............dave

[bullet1968]

Well Im working my butt off...and the weather is so bloody hot and muggy...havent had time really but I re-did the helmet squares Perfecto...dunno if its better??

[daverave]

That does look better Bullet, sorry for no updates my graphics card is overheating hope to have it fixed on monday (under warranty).............dave

[BabyDuck]

looking good bullet. you do have nice bevels everywhere else - maybe add the same to the top and the bottom of the ring - or better yet add a round thing and make it more oval as in the high quality sketch i did (the reference leaves some room for artistic freedom):

edit: the sides are nice its just the top and bottom of it that lack a bit roundness

[bullet1968]

They are duckie?? I bevelled all external edges....I will snap another pic and show you later...when I can wake up..I am constantly asleep LOL

cheers bullet

[daverave]

Trying to kick start this one again after my rig let me down, I am texturing in mudbox 2011 early days for me, I must say I like mudbox so far, I have been looking for some texturing programme that would work between photoshop and a 3D package this one so far fits the bill............dave

[BabyDuck]

awesome progress dave. i like his stupid look on his eyes that is scary. but honestly, maybe he should look into the camera or away somewhere where his nose is not the main subject. right now it looks like he is inspecting his snot-rack ... :mstickle:

[daverave]

Haha yes I no Duckie just made the eyes quickly (lost a lot of eye I made on my old machine)I will do a better job on the eye and the texture (looks like he has got sun burn LOL)just to say Im still doing this.........dave

[stwert]

The eyes don't look that bad... just maybe slightly cross-eyed. Keep up the good work Dave!

[daverave]

Thanks Stwert
I have a normal map from zbrush and a colour map from mudbox, this is not working for me so I will remodel in mudbox and do the texture there. This will take a little longer as I am stilll learning mudbox............dave

[daverave]

Im starting to like the results I am getting from mudbox small detail transfering over better than zbrush (most likley my settings in zbrush).............dave

Edt:sorry sould have said this is just a normal map from mudbox

[bullet1968]

Is his nose really that big?? maybe the helmet makes it look smaller LOL good progress dave

[daverave]

Who nose........LOL.......dave

Edit: on a serious note I am starting to think if you want to model a high detailed model I would chose zbrush but if I want to add detail to a model made in maya and texture I would chose mudbox, these are only my thoughts

[daverave]

I think I have done with the head on to the body.......dave

[bullet1968]

bahahahaha touche....Im sorry dave but every time I look at him I see the nose and expect it to be blood red from wine! LOL sorry mate. Looking the part though!

cheers bullet

[daverave]

Hooter reduction...........LOL.......dave

[bullet1968]

Aaaaaaawwwwwwww man I wasnt bein a douche LOL...it does look a hell of a lot less imposing mate LOL....looks the part

cheers bullet

[BabyDuck]

dave, i like the new nose better than the old one. it is still rather large, and it should be, but does not look like it is swollen any more. you done a great job detailing the rest of the face - and now the nose does look a bit smooth imo.

keep up the good work

cheers duckie

[bullet1968]

Ok peeps, still o inspiration..but I managed to do some more on the Sentinel..rather difficult in places..but some done none the less...might do some more on him tonight. The recent dig at my vehi-feng has given me some better skills but means I tend to change things..damn.

cheers bullet

[daverave]

Thats looking great Bullet. Who had a dig, I hope it was not my comments if it was I am sorry I did not mean to give offence..............dave

[bullet1968]

Shit no dave LOL sorry my Aussie lingo...I had a 'dig' meant I have been having a go at my vehi-feng mate...sorry...I meant I have been working hard on it and moved to this for a breather....all good mate. Thanks too...it was a bit hard as the refs I have are slightly different to each other...but I think this will suffice for now.

cheer bullet

some more dave

[bullet1968]

just for daverave.....here man does this look better? I like this one.

cheers bullet

[daverave]

Looking good to me Bullet...............dave