Sony and Toshiba are not known as big bad chip designers... not like Fujitsu! But anyways, IBM did much of the work. Yes, the other two helped, but it was mostly IBM.

Anyways, as for standards, most of them suck! They are only "standard" to make things cheap and miserable. Look at the hidiousness of x86 or them silly W3C HTML version "whatever they feel like now". They don't work well most of the time. Its just usually cobbled together so that it "just works". Hardly any elegance or anything...

But I'm ranting. Standards are good, but not when all the members in them committees are self serving... businesses! :)

The thing is, good standards loose. Bad ones win. Who knows why? Maybe its a conspiracy!

I had to keep track of BS and IEC standards to ensure that products met them, if its commities then there out of date all the time hence W3C, too many people arguing over what to include, these generally get used as a basic set to build, if the defacto standards that constantly roll with developments then there not to bad, as there up to date, which happens all the time in software, interface etc.

Haha, good standards loosing and bad ones winning, it's just whatever gets picked up and used quicker.

Thats what commities do, argue over entirely pointless things. Updating the HTML standard to allow more 'Web 2.0' is pointless I reckon. Not only are them 'social' websites (advertising reaserch traps) which supposdly require them extensions utterly pointless, I doubt they will need 300+ plus extensions just to create badly coded myspace pages full of viruses and other forms of malware.

And as for keeping with the times, thats utterly pointless as well... What exactly defines modern? I only notice things getting dodgier over time. Yes, a pretty interface is more modern that a CLI, but the OS that runs it gets owned by ten year old exploits...

:angery: Evil! Evil! *grabs pitchfork*

OK I'll pipe up again...

Sony, Toshiba do not design chips they get someone else to do that AMD and Intel usualy or some cheapo company in Korea. Companies like Sony etc.. Design hardware and create concepts or ideas for technology. They are not reallyinvolved in the design or manafacturer of chips or processors.

The IBM Chip is a waste IMHO as it is not a standard any of the developers are finding easy to switch to or code for, hence why now Microsoft and Sony are looking to switch to Intel (its in the begining stages but I think Intel will get the deal) for the XBox 360 and PS3. This means all hardware for both PC and Consoles can have the same low spec architecture code written in and makig porting of games/software far easier.

As for "MS have issues with Software", WRONG!!!! If you install XP/ 2000/ NT4 or now Vista and ony install MS products I guarentee the system will fail 99% less that it does iif you install 3rd party software, so not all the blaim can be dumped on MS. Look at how many Hobbiest's, Companies, Indies and Software Houses write software for Windows... There are 100,000's of them. So you just like to blaim MS as it's their OS, but no step back and think, "...should I have installed Dodgy Buggers - Light User Explorer Photo Package 7...", ".. did this cause issues with windows...".

Ok there is blaim to be had a Microsofts part and it is all to do with the SDK's the realease. They release these at to high a level so that it makes coding easier, but can cause issues when a developer attempts to do certain things that need low level access to Windows and it denies it. Monopolies have already told MS to release lower versions of the SDK's (which they are doing), but why didnt they do that before u ask?

To protect their business.

I do believe Sony and Toshiba have chip architects. The design centre IBM had set up had quite a few Sony and Toshiba staff I believe. Sony or Toshiba even came up with EIB for the Cell, or contributed greately to it. Of course they don't fab it themselve, fabbing modern chips is way to expensive for them.

I didn't say that the Cell was good, I merely said it was original. Its not that good in my opinion. The ever befuddled media were saying that it was a supercomputer in a chip and that, and of course Sony exploited that. Reading the IBM report shows that the Cell isn't that good for double precision floating point, and the SCOP3 report downplayed all the hype as well.

As for Microsoft OS + Microsoft software, that wouldn't make the computer very useful would it? ;)

Does Paint do what Photoshop does? Is Internet Explororer good? I've used Explorer for years before I switched to Opera on Linux. Explorer crashes every day - brings down the kernel too. Have to say, I have never ever seen Linux have a kernel panic, and I'm using Fedora - the evil "in a permanent beta" distro!

While doing a VB .NET course last year, the IDE would go crazy, the kernel will panic and it was a horrid buggy experience. It corrupted itself many times too while saving and opening.

Of course none of that stuff works for you, u use Linix.

And As I said anout Sony, they dont, IBM did it for them, they probably supplied the staff etc... I did work for IBM for 6 yrs and outsourcing is a huge part of their business.

TBH m8. Your opinions are highly biast like evry Linux or Apple user I have ever met.

Microsoft are giants for a reason and people use their software and OS for a reason. Linux ir good, i like it, but its not going to be vialbe for anyone until it is 100% admin and user freindly and has been 100% standardised. Apple is a joke with its "new ideas" that have been around 1 or 2 decades.

Face it buddy your on a loosing argument with attackignwindows just cause u dont like it. I am neither a lover or hater of MS, but I will defend them.

No Microsoft product works for most people. Nearly everyone who has used Microsoft products will have a complaint, some few, some many. I'm in the upper ranges of course... :)


As for IBM doing the entire Cell design, this article disagrees: Link

I think I even had a IBM report that was written partly by the Sony/Toshiba engineers. Its under the 'Phase 1: Conceptual Design', four paragraph down. Given the short notice, this isn't the ideal source (something from IBM would have been nice) but meh... :)


And of course I am attacking Windows because I don't like it. :)

I don't like it because it's bad!

No its not bad, ur just too willing to moan and are closed minded to think linux is the only and best solution.

I have used MS products for over 22 yrs and never had an issue that couldn't be resolved. Eveyone complains about everything, it how big a deal they make about it that tends to stand out. The culture we are living in is about complaining about everything until we get what we want.

Live a little and get Linux off you PC, put windows on and guess what, you might not have to type anything into a terminal to get things done lol.

Linux is not the only solution and if you think you can do better, then i suggest you get hold of a Windows Kernal and get building and coding...

No!! Thought not.

I agree with Ransid, windows is not bad. It's not perfect but then that is impossible since when you write an OS you can possibly know every possible thing some idiot might do with it or what hardware will be updated in a few years time.
I have some issues with it like many but I would have issues with any OS and let me tell you it's a hell of a lot better than the days when there was no OS and you had to type everything in DOS,maybe thats some ppls idea of fun but it ain't mine when i simply want to open an image file.

You know why? Because most of us have used Windows. Tell me Chris, how many versions of OS X have you used, and for how long? After a ton of conversations with people that don't like Macs, most of them haven't even used OS X.

I've used Windows 98, 98SE, 2000, XP, and Vista. After all those versions, it's still hard to use, insecure, and ugly.

Don't even bring up how around 85+% of people use Windows. If people know what is best, then how come there's so many people using Internet Explorer *coughDestroyercough*?

That article dosent say anything other than some sony and toshiba engineers were there when IBM developed it, hell If I was the head of a company and I was throwing a lot of cash at a project, I would want some of my people there to to make damm sure that my interests were supported through each phase of developement.

On as side note asking does paint do what photoshop do, come on, you'll be comparing coding VRML via notepad to Maya next, and then saying that its microsofts version of a 3d package....


JrWho, Ive used 10.1 and 10.2 at uni and I think it was 10.3 or 4, over a period of, I think 3-4 years if I remember rightly, also Ive used MAC OS 4 when we used to have one as a PC at home back in the day. I found each of them very crashey (well I cant really remember OS4) and a pain to use and they also as they went into different versions seemed to get more and more dificult to do something, and not at all easy to use.

Jeez, I only really remember using Tiger and Leopard! I do remember Tiger crashing a couple of times (but it was from an application). Since I've upgraded to Leopard it seems a lot more stable on the crashey side (still has some bugs though, but 10.5.2 is supposedly coming out within a week or two).

Do you remember exactly what it was that was getting more difficult?

I remember 10.1 and 10.2 using photoshop 5 (I think) and Quark on an imac G4's and G5's before using the intel based MAC's.

I was really looking forward to using them, what with the rep that they had and at the time the G5's were brand new (so were the intel based MAC's when I used them but I didnt do much with them to push them but they got used by idiots and eventually crashed a lot)

At uni applying a filter in PS it was probably 75:25 if it did it, hung or just shut the programme down, might have been cos they were uni machines and they were hammered, on the other hand there were some really old PC's that were running Windows 2000 and the same version of PS in another lab that crashed a lot less than the mac's, and it kinda made me wonder how Mac's got a reputation of being so good in the graphics dept.... But It could have been the Macs we had or maybe that version of PS on the Mac?

Also saving work was a nightmare, put a pen drive in, again, hope it didnt crash. Burning a Cd or sorting out files was a pain as I remember you had to access the right programme and use that to move otherwise click and drag to the desktop made a shortcut or deleting using the delete key didnt delete, and then burning was very touchy on the software side using toast and then when it crashed you couldent get the CD out without a paperclip as it didnt have an eject button.

The top menu (file, edt etc) was disconnected from the app. That really got me, and as I always go on about the single button mouse, I use right click all the time and not having it or having to press a button and then click felt like someone swapping one of my arms for one of my legs.

As the versions progressed I felt that it didnt "respond" click then wait, wait bam! does whatever you asked, it was like it was waiting to make sure I wanted to do it, also as the versions were coming small things that you think would be really basic to impliment (such as being able to use a delete key) didnt happen, or if they did I didnt even know.

So overall my Mac experiance was pretty rubbish.

But I suppose if your used to it and its quirks then its just a platform to use software on, but well software on a Mac's a different discussion.

I must say though, as my last post was biased to the bad points, the good points were that it was a nice interface to use and looked really nice, and each version looked better, and going to windows interface seemed like really going back! The lack of viruses was a big plus, although I wouldnt say that there invunrable to them, its just theres not any big ones that can really mess up the computer.

Let me see... I have support MACS since version 9 and have done a little with MAC OS X, dont float my boat, it is as I said earlier a glorified LINUX System. So altogether about 6 yrs.

Hard to use... Click a button and ur done. My son is 6 and can scoot around Vista or XP easily. So I dont think its hrad to use.

Well my god u have no clue about your subject matter... IE is the most up to date Browser out there, it supports all the new web technologies before any other version or product on the market. As for Windows Security yes it can suc at times, but when there are so many reverse engineers out there finding holes, but MS block them as soon as they see them, but I am regurgitating a subject i went into earlier on dev tiems and finance.

Enough said from me tbh. Theres nothing more worth while discusssing until the brains are engaged and the Linux Lovers/Apple Polishers learn to open their own horizons.

So sad to be so bigited and walk around the world with your eyes closed...

PS 5?! :eek:

Ugh, I hated when they didn't have the eject button. That was a LONG time ago though.

Yeah, the menu bar does take a while to get used to when switching over, but I think it's more tidy that way.

Again, I hated the single-click mouses, but Apple has moved past them.

Yup version 5!

With the menu I found it so confusing a detached menu bar.... For a Os that says its intuative well that was a big thing that wasnt.

On the mouse, do they supply a 3 button mouse with new PC's or has support been naitvly added in the OS? I know the macbooks come with a single button on the mouse pad, so if you wanted to use one you had to buy one.

I remember teaching a guy maya, he was using a macbook pro with no mouse and it was like "right click" "err......"

But if there supplying them with new macs then thats ok, if not then all I can say is why not, it cant cost that much to supply one considering.

With desktops, yes (also, they come with the new sleek keyboards). With laptops, no.

Take note that the Mighty Mouse is a 4 button mouse, with a 360˚ scroll wheel.

Wow thats a costly mouse! Can you use the scroll on anything and is the scroll a ball?

What do you mean?

This should answer some of your questions: http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...nplm=MB112LL/A

So its just a mouse with a scroll ball and a couple of extra buttons?

Nice reviews for it on there.

Looks pretty though.

Most of those are people complaining about the scroll ball. I've had mine for over 2 years, yet my scroll ball is still working. Sometimes it stops moving in a direction, but you just need to know how to clean it out the right way.

I love the extra buttons though, because I can access Exposé and my Dashboard without having to touch the keyboard, so it's good for multitaskers.

Well thats nothing new using shortcuts on the mouse, but I suppose it is when you've not had it before.

And if theres that many people going on about the scroll ball then maybe they should do something about it, especially for the price.

Remember mice with scroll balls where you could actually get to the ball to clean it properly and didnt have to resort to special ways to do it?

The whole point of me providing the link was to prove that Sony and Toshiba had engineers on the Cell project and that it isn't 100% IBM. It might be 99% IBM, but you have to give credit to Sony and Toshiba for that 1%. That was the whole point of the discussion with the Cell, that IBM did not do all of it. I don't know why there is denial about Sony and Toshiba doing nothing... They are pretty capable comapnies, Toshiba used to make chips for SGI back in the olden days.

Me get hold of the Windows kernel! Ha! Its not possible since its closed source. What you are asking isn't possible. But if there are complaints about the Linux kernel, there is no reason why you can't fix it youself since its licenced under the GPL. If fact, if you can fix something in Linux, you should.

As for me using the terminal, its the most effective way of doing certain things. Of course its not for everyone, but for those who can make it work is excellent. Now contrast this with Windows. Nope, everyone must use that Fisher and Price interface. Yeah, there are alternatives like the command prompt, and that is no where as powerful as bash, and there are third party shells, but they are not distributed with Windows and Microsoft probaly discourages its use.

And Internet Explorer being modern and up to date? It doesn't even pass the acid test. Yes, I like to make fun of silly complicated standards but seriously, up to date and modern! Standards compliant! :rolleyes:

Safari was first with passing the acid test. Then Opera, followed by Konqueror and Firefox in no particular order. Internet Explorer isn't even on the list of browsers that have passed the acid test. So much for supporting new technologies and all that first. More like last. :)

As for Microsoft security, its a joke. Absolute joke. Tell me, where are the intrustion detection systems, where are the madatory access controls in Windows? You have to fork out lots of money for them, cause it doesn't come with the OS. These tools, along with the firewall and rootkit hunters are the absolute minimum in security and Microsoft doesn't provide them.

And Microsoft fixing security flaws. Security researchers have proven their random number generator to be dodgy... four years ago! :) Quick isn't it?

As for me being closed minded... nonsense! I use MS products as well, so I'm not one of those people who complain about something that I don't use everyday. If something where to come along and be better than Linux, I'll probaly throw it down and use that instead, seriously. :)

And no, Windows can never be better than Linux. :)

The new ones feel sturdier, but that's probably because they're new.

Those old mice did get dirty a lot faster though.