Excellent model you´ve got going on Pony.

Perhaps making the thighs larger -or longer-? Looks as if he does not have any method of locomotion. I´d illustrate my point in Photoshop, however I´m kinda short on RAM as we speak.

Might want to check the Deinonychus thread opened by Kurt to see what I mean.

yeah do watch the ram, know I do.. thats ok.. well I think they should work.. I meen look at a horses legs.. all the muscles are in the top 1/3. besides he's ment more to fly than run around.

Hello again, Pony

Took the nerve to open Photoshop for a while, resources were scarce, computer survived through just enough time to spit out the image you see below. ;)

In any case going back at what you said, you do have a contradiction in your words. You make a comparison between your model´s legs and those of a horse yet you tell me he would fly around more than walk. In such a case you would find yourself with a creature with yet stronger, longer and slender legs than those a horse would have, since a horse wouldn´t have to land at all -and taking you drew the devil with a maiden virgin (:p) I´d say he really is a heavy creature-

What I´m trying to say is, -Watch the reference below- a horse has lots of muscles in the upper region since his legs are more pillar-like (A characteristic found in lots of heavy quadrupeds) but since your creature actually has more of a flying heritage, he would resemble more of a bird (or biped creature with wings), -which is why I advised you to check the reference pics in the Deinonychus thread-

In the same topic, look at the big lump of bone he has for a feet -which looks awesome in my POV-, now look at the bones to which the muscles that hold that same lump anchor. Kinda small aren´t they? This creature would actually have tremendous feet without being able to lift not one of them.

That was my whole point in my last reply.

<just had trouble illustrating it>

haha well he was thinking raptor, or so he told me, and Alan Grant said that they are much like birds. In fact "velociraptor actually means Bird of prey"!

C+C
 

Hi there Adldesigner. Thanks for taking the time and risk on the ram.. LOL. I apriceat your C+C. love it. good points.. but about the contradition. would like to clear that up. and pose maybe a better explination of what I ment.

I'm def not bashing your C+C though. I like it all. at the very least it gives me a chance to really conseder rather I have got something right or not. and thats kinda a thing I go after is , is it posible like that. Even if hell would be suposidly luser on the laws of physics (sp?) considering its ethreal.

Ok about the horse part. true horses don't fly witch is aculay why its better to use them as a basis of this conversation. Horses have a lot more mass as compared to there legs, and they jump about as high as there body hight. ( Up to the withers, sholders) They don't have wings to back flap and air brake for a softer landing so it is acualy harder on there legs and muscles. So I think if my devils muscle mass is close to a horse as paportional to body mass thin the legs can handle flight, landings and walking around with eaze.

ok about the pic I have. as you can see the devil , ( I counted the squares, very scientific I know but I don't want to acualy go in to bio mechanics that much) has 29 cubes of muscle mass ware as a rufly paportonal leged horse has 26. and also the body cavity of the devils is less than the horse. especaly when considering the devil has less width from side to side as the horse dose.

as for birds legs longer and stronger.. thy are longer but much weeker than a horse or dino. consider the paportions on the avrige bird. muscles up at the top of the leg but less power.

Haven't looked but I think it will hang with a T-rex.
and the feet are big becosue all the muscles to controle the clows are down in the foot, not up the leg like is normal. that way the tendonts are more protected in the cavitys of the foot bones for fighting.

hm... very interesting discourse. Both arguments have merit. I think though what it comes down to is what movement potential a beast looks like they have - that's what scariness is about - imagining what's going to happen. I agree with adldesigner that natural movement has to look possible but I also agree with Pony when he said 'down with anatomical correctness'. What's anatomically correct about super hero's movement?

I think it comes down to a gut feeling and I believe that the truth will be revealed by the wings.

I think though that the feet do look a little heavy for the body and that maybe if they looked more talon-like (also perhaps lighter) they might be more frightening.

Dang buddy!!! This is lookin sick and mean!!! Everytime I see an update my jaw drops even more! Keep it coming!

Adldesigner,, LOL btw cool that you like the maiden virgin ! hope to be Modeling her wire frame soon ! maybe you can C+C the virgin part of that for me ?? he ? LOL

Vectorman, hay you know thats a thought its like a Clidsdaile velosorapter, with a demon cow skule !

ereitz.. there you are.. haven't seen you post on this one in a little.. LOL .. thanks man, also good points.. I think its way cool to have conversations like this.. oh about the feet.. I understand how ya feel.. but something to pass buy ya, see what you think.. I'm kinda thinking about the feet like he is a evil great owl. big ass feet for its size. and he kinda lumbers around becouse he's so meen he don't have to move fast kinda thing ???


Hay wicket, thanks.. keep cheaking it out, will be gettting to the maiden some time soon I hope.. maybe I can get my own woarning lable on my thread ,, the CG Nudity one !!

Hello -yet again-, Mr. Pony :D

I want to thank you for making this an excellent oportunity to debate a bit, I believe this enhances our work, and help us achieve a far better level of understanding of our art, and the laws that work behind it. I liked the points you made.
At times we forget that we are simply imagining creatures and bringing them to life. However, to the our mundane-trained eye it´s difficult to pass things up, that look off. We are actually trained to spot faster the mistakes/flaws/corrections a model might have than actually viewing it from a far more holistic approach.

In any case, on with the debate then, I noticed the fact that you handled the strength of your model´s feet with a quantitative point of view, where 29 units of mass are stronger than 26 of them. Indeed, they are. However, you aren´t taking into account the configuration in which those units are handled. For example, look at the way the horse´s leg muscles are distributed, (Extremely efficient configuration by the way), again they look quite different from yours, however, just in the spirit of debate, I configured your devil´s leg muscles fairly similar to the horse´s. They attach in almost the same points. Note: I´m no expert in the field of horse anatomy nor in biomechanics (as Pony so aptly put it), I found some great reference pics and worked from there. As such, I don´t know any muscles names or anything, so I´ll make my own convention and call them by the colors I drawed them in.

Notice how when a horse´s red muscles pulls up-forward, while pulling the navyblue up-backwards, doesn´t need so much force to pull the whole feet up, this would again be a remnant of the pillar-like structure the horse evolved with. Extremely strong to put weight on, yet relatively lightweight. (Same deal with bridges). Let´s go to the devil´s feet now, we notice the appearance of a big lump of bone, which even though -if I understood correctly- has tendons running inside of him, still gives the impression of being fairly heavy. Having almost the same mass of muscle (29 to 26 right?) our devil has yet to pull up a big bone, (Which to make matters worse DOES NOT have any way of going up per se, since he does not have any tendons, nor muscles -up to the task- attached to the leg that would help him in the process). *(Upper picture)

To take your idea a bit further, and using the same means, let´s calculate the mass our devil has to pull from the ground, and that of the horse.
<adldesigner starts counting again, from the blue downwards> *(Lower picture)
Horse pulls 14. <--- Definitely winning in the efficient category.
Devil pulls ... 30. <-- Has trouble even walking.

In any case, and since I´m getting sleepy now, I´ll leave it at this point, and make a personal note, I like your model quite a lot .. however, it does have that leg flaw. From here there´s only two routes we can go for; either we correct the flaw -and go the anatomically correct way-, or we leave it as is -and go the imaginative way-

Neither of them is wrong. As a matter of fact, either way you go, you´ll still have an excellent -not to mention a perhaps winning- model to brag about.

Again, I thank you for such an excellent debate ... I think I need to rest now (6:00 AM here). I´m starting to walk like the devil to try to prove my point, and that borders on insanity right? :D

By the way, while I was gathering some information pertaining to the case, I downloaded some ostrich pictures. They might prove usefull to you.

LOL, she looks cool bud! Model her ... I kinda like this month´s Hell & Bobbies Challenge! :D:D:D

:beer:

**EDIT** By the way, did you notice that in my first image, the devil is kinda sniffing the horse´s arse, and in your reply it´s the horse the one who´s sniffing the devil´s arse? :D LMAO ... going to sleep now. Cheers mate, keep up the good work.

Hay there.. good points agin. but about him being able to lift the foot. I just don't think that is a problem. I meen if he can old up a lot more mass of his body with the legs thin he can also pick them up. Not to mention in the pic hear I have a light blue ariow. thats the muscle that will be picking up the foot and four leg. don't think it will have a problem. yep there are other muscles involved but..

I like the debate also. and have no problem talking about it. even if the devil is flowed. basicly when I was drawing him I liked so much how it just come out of no ware with out refrance that I desided to stick with it for the most part.. IF I get time to really redo the feet if I get a chance thin I just might. I want to make sure I compleat the challenge. Done want you to think that I'm blowing off the good points. I just don't know if I will have time. Haven't tryed to texture befor. I will prob do fine with making them but laying out UV's and such are a mistory still yet.

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Oh the inside of the thighs are going to be smoth becouse they will have skin.

I agree about the time issue.
It´s looking mighty fine though, and I´ll continue to monitor the thread.
Cheers

Lol Pony, should be interesting to say the least.

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Vectorman, ok speeking of rapters.. hear what do you think ?

CooL! I think the raptor fingers are longer, and the nails are shorter tho. But i think it looks much better than you're original idea, and it would still be original, if you didn't exactly copy the raptor. I dunno they definately look scary thats for sure.

Quick crit: will he be using that back claw on his feet for walking/balance? If so, it might need to be flatter and more stubby. Maybe bent the other direction when he's perched or standing. In your sketches, it looks like he uses them for some support rather than just grasping like a hawks talons..just 2 more cents onto the pile. The model is awesome by the way!

and working hard..
 

working hard at it.

the arms still look a little funny becouse I chose a odd pose for binding to skeleton.
also there not atached to the body yet.
there is still tweeks around the elbos that need done..

but its what I have bean doing.

also need to do the muscles of the cheast after I atach them.

besides all that C+C if you like.

Hi Pony,

it is looking good... :)

the pose is quite funny... it's like it's saying "Hey... it isn't my fault... I didn't jump on that building..." or someting like that... :D

btw. were are you getting that Maya doping... could sure use some of it... :D

regards

Strarup

Hey, this is more a message for strarup :), if you look at his refrence hes going to have massive wings :D. Therefore his stance is perfect for the weight of his body, it could even be a bit more foreward. Heheh, i know though.. atm its quite weird.. you would think to see something like this on 4 legs ;)

Hi Matt,

I think it looks good... :)

I may have misunderstood something... or expressed me wrong... :)

it is not like I think the pose is bad... but the pose seems like an excuse pose... which is quite funny I think... becuase why should a creature like that have to excuse for anything... :)

except if the Dark Lord himself is giving it... that was what I pictured in my head when I saw the "Dragon" in that pose... :)

regards

Strarup

LOL

Wow. That is looking great.

hahhahaaaa.. I love it.. your right Strarup, he dose look like he's going "what , WHAT ? I wasn't ME !! "

Thanks M I'll do a 4 leged critter in the Tournament maybe.

Thanks, Witchy, Snich, and Vectorman ( Hi5s for entering the Tournament)

wOOt *Slap*

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Looks awesome!
Keep on it.

Ah, im lovin the spine and that "gooey" effect :D. Great job.

and1
 

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and2
 

oh yeah.. M sorry about the thing off the back of the arms had to undo thoughs changes.. cant have it in place untill the wings are on.. but it will be gooy like you like..

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and the cheast is more defined also.

Its looking really good pony. But my thoughts are that you need more definition on the muscles. Emphasizing the power and "Hellishness" of the beast

sure will work on that prob.. kinda in a hury to get to texturing..

YEAH..
 

:beer:

See Adldesigner it will fly !!!!!!!!!!!

Neenr neenr nEENERRRRRRR !!!

and
 

bit closer.

still not attached, and I know there a little flat. but its time for bed !!

woooow!! now nobody can nowhere be save!! the wings gave it a very nice touch!!!

now all I have to give it a tail so it can really balince..

thanks abra. it is starting to get real sinister.

very very nice touch..cool;)

sweet model!

ah I love it! Awesome job so far pony! Just, is he supposed to have webbings inside his wings? Seeing i thought it was just going to be the bone skeleton of the wings, or some of that was going to be ripped :P. Well, cant wait to see what you pump out next :).