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-   -   SM Forum ethics... (https://simplymaya.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5633)

dave_baer 05-05-2003 06:17 PM

SM Forum ethics...
 
Im sorry if this seems a little too harsh...

I've been coming here for some time now and have seen some really amazing stuff being produced by some talented artists. I've also seen some work that could stand to be re-worked and made better. However, the one thing that both the good and bad have is the comments about them. They all seem to say the same things... "'Great! Nice work!', or 'Excellent... Love it!'. while these comments hold true for about 90% of what I've seen here, the other 10% could use more than a pat on the back.

Now, don't anybody take this the wrong way, Im not trying to say that Im any better than anyone here or that anybody sucks. My intention is to bring out what I perceived this forum started out to be but went astray from.

What we need here is more constructive criticism and less of the "Yes-Man" tactics. There have been some posts here with work that could use some advice and c&c but no one offers any. All they say is 'Nice work' when what the artist really needed was "You should fix this, light that, model this, texture that, etc." It's like those kids on the American Idol tryouts that can sing to save their lives. Someone in life has been telling them they are really good when in reality they are not. They auditioned with the thought they were good because no one had the heart to tell them that they suck. And when Simon and the other judges ripped into them they got really hurt by their comments.

See, if we keep telling the (for lack of a better word) 'Newbies' that they are really good, then they will continue to produce less than average work and keep making the same mistakes. And when it comes time to hunt for a job, they're going to get a lot of rejection letters. However, if we offer our advice and criticism where needed, then they can go back, fix the broken parts and create better works.

That goes for the veterans too. Most of what I've posted here has been in the WIP section. WIP=Work In Progress. IMHO WIP should be an area most criticized. So, when I post in the WIP section, I expect someone to stand up and say what they like/dislike about the image. What needs to be worked up, what needs to be toned down. Is the lighting good? How are the textures? Should I add more detail to this piece or that piece? Etc, etc, etc. If you post over at CGTalk, they automatically crit your work. This helps to make a better artist instead of blowing sunshine up your fecal excreting orifice (that means 'ass' for you laymen). :D

So, does anyone disagree with me on this? Like I said, i don't want to piss anybody off by saying that but I think it needed to be said.

:beer:

EagleKing 05-05-2003 06:28 PM

mmh...I totaly agree.
But I thought that if I would say whats bad on a model that this guy will say the same about mine without any reason.
but ok. I will give honest comments and crits now.

some wanna start to be honest?
Go in the challenge section and look fro my latest upload :D .

cb8rwh 05-05-2003 06:33 PM

i agree to an extent - i think that there are people who do tell you like it is, but also there are quite a few newbie/not so experienced people on this site who probably see something but are not to certain of their own ability/knowledge to comment fully so they say well done/great model etc for encouragement purposes - I see this as not a bad thing.

It is a fairly new site - as far as I can tell- a year or two down the line and I am sure the poeple who are here now and learning all the time will have far more constructive criticisms and a more sure point of view about other people's work to voice their opinions

give us all a chance

Alan 05-05-2003 06:37 PM

i actually agree with this (i know i've been guilty of it a few times! :o) but I do try and not just tell people "oh yeah that's great" However I wont be overly critical either cause I have been to CGtalk and seen some of the crappy comments people get over there and that has made me not want to post my stuff there. I think newbies should be encouraged but not molly coddled.

:D

Alan

adldesigner 05-05-2003 06:37 PM

I agree to an extent mate.

Don´t have much time to get into it now, but I´ll surely post a proper reply tonight.

Kurt 05-05-2003 06:41 PM

I agree to a certain extent..... For the artist that have used Maya for a while and are really looking for a crit most do post C+C welcomed.

But you also have to rember that this forum does have a lot of beginners that are tring really hard to learn the software. Lets face Maya is not that easy program at first. So for the newbies as you put it... It takes a lot for them to post up there first works, so why would you not give them encouragement by saying great start. You can tell right off the bait weather the person posting is new or has some experiance. If you go right down on them telling a new person everything you think is wrong that will just discurage them form continuing there 3d persiutes and comming to SM.

Im all for getting a good crit and welcome them, its a great way to learn and push your self to open up and see things that other people see.

In my eye's it just comes down to the work that is posted if I can tell that the person is a newbie and is just looking for some kind words so that they feel like they are on the right track. Sure i'll say great start and try and pay attention to so and so area. If the post is from someone I know is more than new and is looking for a good crit!! I will go into a more indepth crit, getting into the model lighting etc.

mtmckinley 05-05-2003 07:15 PM

There's only so much that criticizing a newbie's work can accomplish. And it's also easy for people to go too far. I personally do not offer much criticism when it comes to WIPs... as they are WIPs... the artist isn't done yet. For me to just pound home a dozen things that, yeah, he knows about, he just hasn't done yet, seems a waste of effort. I've also spoken to quite a few newbies who get discouraged when someone totally rips their model apart, pointing out everything they've done "wrong" and "should" have done. Of course, it just depends on the person and their temperment.

I'll say this though: Newbies can't expect too much from themselves. They have to take the learning process in stride and realize that it takes a lot of time, effort, and practice before they start emulating the Stahlburg(sp)s in the world.

Just my 2 pence. ;)

NitroLiq 05-05-2003 07:15 PM

I think both Cb8rwh and Kurt really hit the nail on the head. A "newbie" has to start from the ground up so they're plugging along the best they can. If someone tries to complete their first character model and it looks like Gumby when they were trying to model the Incredible Hulk, give advice on what they need to do to on the next try. Newbies have eyes (hopefully)....they can look at their models and see whether it sucks or not. Guide them without tearing them down.

With the advanced Maya users that have a more-developed skillset, you can be more detailed and critical in your c + c because they're closer to getting it right.

That being said, I do believe there is a little too much praise rather than valid critiques when a project needs it. I also believe people jump too quickly to put their work up without it really being ready for a critique.

--Pete

P.S On another note, I think it's a worse issue when someone tries to answer another's technical question when they don't know what they're talking about...it's misleading. If you don't know the answer to a question, let someone else answer and learn from it. My .02.

P.P.S. Another would be people that post before either searching the forums or reading Maya's helpfiles. Especially when the answer is right there.

Kevin 05-05-2003 07:43 PM

'Great! Nice post!', 'Excellent... Love it!'.

:D

GCastro 05-05-2003 08:05 PM

LOL, that was funny kevin... hehehe...

:D

ragecgi 05-05-2003 11:07 PM

Yeah, I do that type of "one-liner" stuff a lot.

I'll try to expand with solid advice more in the future:)

I do agree with Mike as well.

dave_baer 06-05-2003 01:31 AM

WHEW!!! And here I thought I was gonna catch flame hell for that. :D

Well, I agree with the points u guys made. But I guess I should have said to critique within reason. Dont go telling a newbie that his model sucks and he needs to read more books or something derogatory like that. Control your comments, only say what is necessary or tell him what he can do to improve it. Remember, CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, not destructive. Control your comments and simply direct them to the problem areas, that's all.

As for the veterans, there are some who need no C&C. Some of us here are more than able to pull off a model and do it exceptionally well and need no C&C. But when it comes to it, again, simply point out what u think is wrong or could improve it. Even if I think my model/scene is done and kicks PIXAR ass :D if someone should say 'I think it would look even better if you did this or added that..." I really do go and try it to see if it works. If it doesn't well, I took the crit with courtesy. But if it does, then hey! They just helped to make my pic a whole lot better. :)

On the WIP issue. Obviously, it's a WIP. Things are to be added, textures are to be done, bla bla bla... But that doesnt mean u still cant C&C. Take Brian Ellebracht's Mech Design post. Now granted, he asked for the advice of his fellow SMers to guide the direction of the model, but that's the exact thing I'm talking about. Help to guide the artist in the direction he wants to go. If he's making a plane, suggest things that would make it look mor elike a plane. If he's making a flying mech, then tell him what u think would look good to add to it so that he has a pool of resources to pull ideas from. yeah?

Ok. Im glad to see that everyone pretty much agrees. So let's get to helping out our fellow SMers both new and old (old? Who's old?! :D ) and let's help to make Simply Maya the great 3D community it's meant to be.

:beer:

caligraphics 08-05-2003 01:25 PM

hmprf.. I don't agree at all .. But then again, I just like to disagree :P

good thread, and good work - ehm, good points in here which I think we could all learn from.

M 09-05-2003 02:31 AM

Hey dave, I also agree with you. WHat i feel is the same basically as mike and kurt so i wont go on about it. When i post.. i try to take the persons leven into granted... If someone is a noobie and they post a model.. im going to critisize it different than if some pro posted it. I always try to look on the positive side when I post, which i think most should do. Just when you post your constructive critisizm.. try to do it in a nice way. Anyways, yea.. i also do tend to post things like... " awesome, love it, keep up the great work (period)"... so after readin this i wil try to be more of a "professional critic" like adl over here ;).. heheh. Talk to you guys later.

BTW, i do feel that adl is one of the best critics on this site.. he can go into immense detail at times!

alexgc 09-05-2003 04:29 PM

hmmm interesting post...I think i agree generally with what u are saying dave. I think we can do without all the sicophants (yes-men) but then on the other had when it comes to newbies I think they need all the encouragment they can get, so as not to be disheartened early on. The thing is ppl see all the great work on SM and other sites and they try and emulate it straight away rather than undertaking a task at their own level. So it is easy for them to become disillusioned and give up when their work isnt of the same quality.

But yes the ought to be a line between encouragement and kiss ass-ism lol

actually in an extension of this point...I think we have to cut out the posts that have no constructive criticism at all when it comes to WIP or Finished Work posts. We are all guilty of them. I mean the posts where all is said is "great work", or "looking good"....that sort of thing...


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