ok.. after following your advice pony this is what i got.. i didnt quite know what you wanted me to do with the lines that went across the side of the face.. so instead of deleting them.. i just moved them into the positions you wanted me to create new lines.. so if it wont work that way just let me know.. as far as adding the lines around the eyes and mouth i think i have a pretty good understand as why you had me do that.. especially around the mouth region.. that should help me when defining the cheek area more... anyways thanks again.. anymore crits and comments from anyone else is always appreciated later everyone