The first ones were done with the default renderer, 1 ambient light and 1 ray-traced diectional light this one and the last ones were done with mental ray using final gathering the main difference between the last 2 is the asdded detail on the midsection and the top part the joins the mid section to the rear section has had some bits added i'll do a close up of the mid section while i'm at work and post it when i get home man i wish i could retire and i'm only 21