Thanks guys, Jango here's a wire of my low poly proxy mesh. Alienscience. As you can see from the screen grab the poly count on the lowpoly proxy is only a little over 3000 polys. As for my method well I'm old 3dmax user that recently converted over to maya a couple months ago, and I must say I'm never going back to max . At any rate I've always been a poly by poly modeler. shadeblade. Poly modeling isn't really that hard. I did find it a brutal learning curve at first, but once I understood exactly how my mesh was going to smooth out, and how to create those nice hard creases without using subd's then it becomes a hell of alot easier. Troy