your a legend mate, just what i needed. will get onto it as soon as i finish, gets this, i got to write a two page synopsis for a movie about a deaf dog (specifically a dalmation) who is hounded (good pun actually, i might use it) by a bad guy, no doubt the vet who discovered his deafness (deaf dogs are put down)) and somehow survives. It is set in, or around bosnia, i might put him in Mengala's camp during WW2, would make a good animation actually

thanks mate, one hand washes the other (as they say in zee old country)

And Matt, the good looking one, i will be doing that tut you provided before venturing much further with this, as i downloaded the metal textures from alias (I mean autodesk) and they are crap, excuse the french but sure, if the lights are this way and that one might get a good shader out of it but all i got was black black black, and a lot of tweaking got me something that approximated metal if you had the imagination of a child, thanks for the link. for now i will finish the model, though it is great that the other matt has given me the tip on plastic so i can look fondly upon the renders from time to time.

so betwenn the two matts, i have some good info, one metal and one plastic.