its been a while now i sought of put that model down and moved on to another just thrashing about trying to find a modeling system that fits with me, having alsoughts of other problems in all soughts of directions but it sound like there is something worth a look so i'll have a go and see iff it gets me somewhere ... i did actualy do as "3danimationmaya" sugested and start again but i did keep the one i was haveing probs with (started trying to do the head and hands) ... i am very new to this and subsequently only learning about mesh quality thru trial and error but here is low grade image for ref ... ps cool dragon ... so many poly's