Jeez, Im not gonna waste 20 plus minutes on a mentalists rant, but on reading the comments I can see both sides of the coin. I've been using the Maya modelling toolset for a long while professionally and to be totally honest, its been very rare to hear in a studio (at least where Ive been) about how bad its tools are to model with in Maya -very rare. In fact its usually been how bad Mental ray is and 'why arent we using Renderman goddamnit!!!' So who are these people that are complaining LOL? I'll tell you...I recently finished a gig as Supervising Modeller and generally I found the negative comments have come from other software users, who have had little experience of Maya, who then go on to comment about this plugin or that plugin that max et al offers to do for the modelling work flow. So you have a plugin, great, so its not something that the base package actually offers. It all seemed a case of what they were used to and not wanting to learn what was in front of them. Also let us not forget about what under the hood in Maya, its API is there for the taking to customise and make it work how you want it to - thats Mayas most powerful feature, which in essence shows that its really made for the Industry and not really Joe the HomeUser. It isnt, it really isnt. Despite what AD says about price dropping for everyone to afford, etc blah blah. Yeah I think some of the comments by Rick are valid, like holes cutting etc, should be sorted, and Nurbs...jeez I cant remember the last time someone used nurbs in the studio - maybe a few curves as a guide (like myself) or a quick extrude on a path, but thats about it. But please keep Subds LOL. And as Vlad commented we could say this for most of the apps out there, not everyone is gonna see everything in the same light. After the various differences and complaints and things myself and the Lead Texture Artist would come to hear, we made up a saying in studio....'Those who can, do. Those who can't, make excuses' cheers for now Jay