Thanks Jay, I will put the 10 cents in the piggy bank ( I shall be a miljonaire soon )

I agree about pushing meshes in Maya, but I am really trying to train my eye a bit and in Zbrush it's quicker than in Maya ( more intuitive), but also to see what Renderman can do with regards to displacement

I do look at reference by the way, it's just that he looks different in every other picture (( I tend to match up the angle in zbruh on any given picture and try to visually match up the model, which works reasonably well)
I will have another go in Zbrush and try to get the head the way I want it , I am feeling that it's getting better with each back and forth

Thanks again