Must have been a mistake ? I didn't realise it was..... I have thrown all my old models out and started again - Doing things the 'proper' way (hopefully!) from now on... Basically I am just learning things afresh after getting such helpful reply's to my posts, and I'm hoping my models will come out OK from now on... The pencil was done after working 3 - 12Hr shifts finishing at 7.00pm and still messing about with it at aound 01:00AM (because i was so frustrated that it wouldn't work) so it's not surprising things were a tad askew - lol I'm on my last shift now.... so hopefully I can get some of this Mad scientist's lab done.... on my 4 days off...... Thanks for all the help, I can't wait to start modelling now i can do it better.... Scraggy