here is my first test... this looks so much better than a bump map, but it also takes alot longer to render.... What do you think? I am going to bump it up a bit... Dave, I couldn't find an attribute, where I could just bump up the displacement... not sure where it is? Instead, I edited the dispalcement shader, by remaping it with a ramp shader in maya, and for the white or light color, instead of making the V value a value of 1, I bumped it up to 8... no i will go to 12 to see what it looks like. THanks, Brian