DJ Go back to page 1 of the thread (I think) you'll see a layout of polys I did for this thread, N Gons are there... Vlad: thanks for posting that up, I have that too, I believe Stahlberg had his 'fingers in the pie' on that one, in fact yes it mentions it at the bottom of the image. Its a good image to use. I started out looking at that and stuff by Bay Raitt (The Edge Loop Master) and just worked my own theory from the two. Arran: Great stuff, we should mix the thread up with Game and Hi res meshes, Im sure people would apprecaite it here. And yeah lets give Mike a shout MIIIIKEEE!! Cheers Jay