Thanks again for the help, Keef the problem isn't extruding the face that works from both the pull down menu & the e/f icon, the problem comes from the fact that the handles no longer appear where once they used to.

I can use to move tool (W) but I start getting odd clipping & extra faces to pull around, and like you said Mike it makes things a little trickier.

What I can't understand is where & why have the handles gone and how do I go about getting them back?

Again sorry to be a pain:o