AlienScience Hold on lad!! Before you model any further take a good look at your model. Your armour has something like a 20 sided poly on the upper half. Im bloody shocked that nobody has pointed this out at all!! I would start with a good old fashioned cube slice it minimally and shape as you go. Think simple here dont get bogged down with technicalities of 'nurbs this' or 'sub d' that. If you want some help online Im usually around at some point during the evening (uk time) I'll drop by your PM and give you my msn if you want. Later _J