Aaaaaaaah!!!!!!! Damn I forgot i set it to quarternions (as default in the key preferences). Was experimentsing with it when i was rigging and forgot to change it back - didnt know that could be set through the graph editor too though will remember that one. Doh anyhow thanks alot for that - I'd never have remembered to check that myself, and I've been banging my head over this for the past 2 nights! your a life saver (well sanity saver *cracks open some beers and sends them danny's way* btw dont know if you've noticed already, but Jason has a new DVD out at the A|W online store - already have some of next months wages earmarked for that one