Worked on his hip area and the stomach some, and the back. The back isn't finished yet, but I think it's looking much better. My mesh isn't really suited to zbrush; I hadn't laid out his topology with zbrush in mind. I'll give it a try in my next model, though I've used it a little in this one for tweaking at base level. As usual crits and comments welcome. Arran - I've not forgotten your comments about the mouth, I'm working towards them. I've checked my reference and the distance from hip to crotch is ok; maybe it looks weird because he doesn't have a d*ck or b*lls? cheers, gubar