Thanks Bullet still working on the nose, Thanks Duckie I know what you are saying about the helmet but I find doing the hair not to hard to do and I might have some shots without the helmet on. Thanks Mastone I have taken on board all you have said and am trying your suggestions. A little update tweeking of the chin, eye braw and eye duct........dave

Edit:I think I will do the fine detail in photoshop I think it will give me more control