I have set the hairs start position from current and the rest position from start. I then deleted the curves and my nurbs surface since they were no longer seemed to have any effect on the hair. I have uploaded a vid to see if it might click as to what the problem is. I need to wait for it to clear with you tube but once it has I will post the link. Also thanks for the suggestion gster I am going to see if I can get this to work but if not I have the hair systems curves saved and so may revert back to them and attach them to the control object and see if I can get that to work. cheers, Leon