Yeah, I understand your point but in reference to 'Thats how we learn, NO SHORT CUTS! ' I think it would be foolish for ppl not to use pre-completed topology as references, we use image planes as references to aide with our accurate modelling so why hinder yourself by trying to create decent topology from scratch when you can have readily available references? Obviously once someone is proficient in creating 'their' own style of completed topology then the reference wouldn't maybe be required. I wouldn't drive my car blindfolded because I know the way home without looking . Not having a dig at your thread Jay.