thanks mate ..will try it when i get home . i have had several people explain but still an issue . also I have tried and it worked perfect. i kept forgetting to go to front view before, i was trying to do it in perspective mode . i use index and held the x key or v lol .... too early in the morning to snap it to the grid . It finally worked correctly . i will try again tonight to make sure everything is working correctly and i didnt just have some luck creep in. just wondering when you model do you leave everything on center ? x , y , z ? i mean when i was doing main body of shift. i changed it to all zero's but the wings i changed everythign to zero's but the "x " axis . Is this good practice so everything lines up easy ?