Patches, arent a messy way of modelling, just a prefered way, depending what you are used to. Z brush doesnt do anything but 'its' own way for example, there is no right or wrong way. Matt: Post a wire dude just to see how you are getting on with it. Did you start out with this in the side view as a curve similar to that of character/modeller/author Jai Jin Choi? Cheers Jay