::inhale:: If I delete the grey area ( light blue in wireframe ) then I can't alter the green model underneath. If it helps at the start of the tutorial it tells you to smooth proxy which generates a subdivision of the cage, I can only assume that this is the grey area. Altering the model by click dragging verts works fine up until I try to merge verts from a newley drawn polygon to to side of the mouth it attaches itself to the grey area ( the cage? ) which then detaches itself from the original green model.... ::exhale:: Does this make sense to anyone... because i've managed to lose myself What i'm trying to achive here is to join the sides of the mouth together using a newly drawn polygon, I just cant work out how... Thanks again for any help Just a thought but could this be happening because earlier on in the tutorial while extrudeing parts of the lips to add shape to them, I then joined edges (of the extruded parts ) instead of joining verts... dont ask me why I did this, but could that have caused the problem?