ello, well thanks dannygan, I checked out the site you advised and have started again. This time using a reference picture from that site. This is what I have some up with so far. I have modelled it with the arms down, but I see most models with their hands straight out to the side. Is there a right way and a wrong way?? Does it effect it when it comes to adding a skeleton?? I cannot draw to save my life so I will have to try and find references on the net - not the easiest I can assure ya!!! cheers rich