Hi jay i started all over the model i read a lot of Topology about muscules on face and ... started learning a new technique for modeling a head with poly plane starting on the eye it worked BEtter than my old technique with starting with nurbs sphere shape it and make it poly ... and it gets ****ed like my models up there ... ok see some progress and comment pls it's hard for me now to make soem beliveable head model but i will try this new way is way to easy ! and way to pleasant to work with Best regards , ColdWave