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26-03-2014, 12:38 PM   #1
Skalman
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Dark skin shader in Arnold
Okay so I have modelled my idol, peter tosh, and is about to begin to create the skin shader for this man. Right now im experimenting alot in arnolds SSS skin shader, and since Peter is dark-skinned it's quite different for me to understand how the SSS channels and the diffuse texture should look like. Here's a picture of the type of skin Peter has, so you can get the idea of what i want to re-create.



Shallow scatter


mid scatter


deep scatter




Theese are the SSS textures that would work for a white male, now for the real question. how would i setup the SSS shaders, and diffuse channel for this type of skin?

for peter i would set the SSS like this:
Shallow scatter: very dark, almost blackish
mid scatter: more like brownish color, still very dark
deep scatter: very red'ish, no big difference from a shader for a white character i guess



i'd still like to hear your opinion guys, so start throwing it at me mates


thanks
skalman


(images found from https://support.solidangle.com)
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26-03-2014, 08:48 PM   #2
Gen
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Hard to say without seeing your current shading.
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26-03-2014, 11:27 PM   #3
Skalman
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Hard to say without seeing your current shading.





im still working with the gemoetry so dont consider it all 100% done :p hope you get the idea
skalman
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27-03-2014, 01:52 AM   #4
Gen
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I don't think you're going to get very far with just swatches since they can't simulate the variations in a person's skin. Get those textures into Photoshop or whatever and start experimenting with different hues.

Plus, the lighting doesn't seem particularly useful for testing skin, I can't see any scattering but that could be a scene scale issue I don't know. Are you also using real lights or only the IBL?
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27-03-2014, 04:31 AM   #5
NextDesign
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If you're not done the modeling, don't starting texturing and shading it. You'll just be re-doing work.
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27-03-2014, 08:06 AM   #6
Skalman
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If you're not done the modeling, don't starting texturing and shading it. You'll just be re-doing work.

I know, I've got displacement to do, and all the texture channels but it feels easier for me to know roughly how I should layout the SSS/diffuse channels before I go to the texturing part.
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01-04-2014, 08:33 PM   #7
CollinBishop
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Watch this video to understand the flow you should do to achieve this best.

Making Of, a Bruce Lee 3D portrait - YouTube
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03-04-2014, 08:55 PM   #8
Skalman
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Watch this video to understand the flow you should do to achieve this best.

Making Of, a Bruce Lee 3D portrait - YouTube
ive seen this before but its not relevant to my question. bruce lee isnt dark-skinned and the question I have is how the sub-surface scattering layers should be layed out (color) for a dark skinned human
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03-04-2014, 10:04 PM   #9
Jay
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Dude...

Firstly get your diffuse map done...all surfaces need a diffuse map. This is your primary color for the job. From what you are showing is a caucassian skin set up, and your character clearly isnt. So i would suggest getting your refs of african/dark skinned people even good hi res shots of Pete Tosh. Then spend a few hours or a couple of days just creating and perfecting the color/diffuse map to the best of your ability. Its not something to rush.

Then from there start building up the scatter layers using the diffuse by altering the color map. As this is an arnold render I really cant comment on the nature of the shader setup or the renderer as opposed to the awsome Bruce Lee one which I recall is all mental ray, so it may differ a bit, so bear that in mind.

What I do know is that once you get sorted in Arnold...theres no going back as its probably the best renderer out there right now...it handles polys by the bucket load so you could actually sculpt some more tertiary details on the mesh rather than leaving it up to displacment. Im working on a wachowski (matrix dudes) movie right now and I can tell you we are using arnold to render some seriously hi res models...they render very quick too!!! Arnold is an absolute poly grinder..it loves them!!

cheers
Jay
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04-04-2014, 08:40 AM   #10
Skalman
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Quote:
Dude...

Firstly get your diffuse map done...all surfaces need a diffuse map. This is your primary color for the job. From what you are showing is a caucassian skin set up, and your character clearly isnt. So i would suggest getting your refs of african/dark skinned people even good hi res shots of Pete Tosh. Then spend a few hours or a couple of days just creating and perfecting the color/diffuse map to the best of your ability. Its not something to rush.

Then from there start building up the scatter layers using the diffuse by altering the color map. As this is an arnold render I really cant comment on the nature of the shader setup or the renderer as opposed to the awsome Bruce Lee one which I recall is all mental ray, so it may differ a bit, so bear that in mind.

What I do know is that once you get sorted in Arnold...theres no going back as its probably the best renderer out there right now...it handles polys by the bucket load so you could actually sculpt some more tertiary details on the mesh rather than leaving it up to displacment. Im working on a wachowski (matrix dudes) movie right now and I can tell you we are using arnold to render some seriously hi res models...they render very quick too!!! Arnold is an absolute poly grinder..it loves them!!

cheers
Jay

yes well i just finished my model, and is gonna add some displacement to it (or as you said just straight up polygons, if my computer can handle that )
Might sculpt the wrinkles and detailed bodyparts and then leave the displacement for the pores and deeper details (?)


hmm yeah i love Arnold, its awesome. been looking through hours of tutorials this last month and i cant stop from being surpriced about how sick this render engine is.

However on topic i dont see how having a finished model matters, this question is about preparation, since ive never really experimented enough with Arnold's SSS layers and since i cannot find any tutorials on the web for how the SSS for a black man would work I just cant get the picture of how the shallow, mid, and deep scatter would work for this type of human. Should i have a very dark (blackish) shallow scatter, should i have a more brownish (light/dark brown???) for the mid scatter, and for the deep scatter i assume its pretty much the same as for a white man...

thanks for the reply ill do some experimenting with the SSS once im done with diffuse i guess
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04-04-2014, 08:55 AM   #11
Jay
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Quote:
However on topic i dont see how having a finished model matters

What!!!! it always matters!! Finish the model first get it looking right. What happens if you decide to adjust the mesh? you will have to redo uvs, correct stretching and so forth....this means theres a chance of having to redo the texture....besides looking at the model theres a whole load of stuff that needs correcting, but thats really not the point of this thread right now.

everything that isnt corrected and sorted in the primary stages will have a knock on effect later on, and will become a pain in the ass

I know there are a few of us here that work in games or vfx and I can tell you a change down the pipeline can have serious issues to someone along the line....just ask them too, this isnt just my snippet of experience talking...its the truth

Dont be complacent....you have asked for advice from people on this forum so either learn from it and take bits of advice, or just get on with it...

sorry if this sounds harsh - Im just giving you the facts and not glazing you with the AWSOME, KEEP GOING, GREAT START and NICE JOB comments

Jay
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04-04-2014, 10:37 AM   #12
Skalman
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Quote:
What!!!! it always matters!! Finish the model first get it looking right. What happens if you decide to adjust the mesh? you will have to redo uvs, correct stretching and so forth....this means theres a chance of having to redo the texture....besides looking at the model theres a whole load of stuff that needs correcting, but thats really not the point of this thread right now.

everything that isnt corrected and sorted in the primary stages will have a knock on effect later on, and will become a pain in the ass

I know there are a few of us here that work in games or vfx and I can tell you a change down the pipeline can have serious issues to someone along the line....just ask them too, this isnt just my snippet of experience talking...its the truth

Dont be complacent....you have asked for advice from people on this forum so either learn from it and take bits of advice, or just get on with it...

sorry if this sounds harsh - Im just giving you the facts and not glazing you with the AWSOME, KEEP GOING, GREAT START and NICE JOB comments

Jay

yes well sorry i guess i was quite unclear, i know a model has to be 100% finished before i can go any further with it, because, as you said a change in the model once you are done with it because it'll be horrible to have to change the UVs and all the texture channels. but since this topic is about the SSS channels, i was pointing out that having a done model doesn't stop me from planning how my SSS channels should be looking like. I'm not planning on texturing it with the diffuse and SSS at this moment, right now im just PLANNING. thats when a finished model doesnt matter, i could be experimenting with the SSS colors on a sphere, what im after right now is getting a thought of how to achieve correct color for this model once im done with the diffuse/displacement and all that



and yes im very thankful for all the tips and critics, i wouldnt be making theese models (roughly) correct if it werent for all the great critisism i get from you guys. im just a little confused because on this topic ive had alot of diffrent answers to questions im not asking for...
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Last edited by Skalman; 04-04-2014 at 10:40 AM.
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04-04-2014, 10:50 AM   #13
Jay
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No worries

dude, I believe you are getting answers for everything...you said your model wasnt 100% done, so that issue has been advised, and basically its underlined the fact what you need to do first for your color maps to obtain the correct skin shade.

I have some Arnold tutes, if you can wait until later, I'll PM you, they may help

Jay
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04-04-2014, 11:41 AM   #14
Skalman
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Quote:
No worries

dude, I believe you are getting answers for everything...you said your model wasnt 100% done, so that issue has been advised, and basically its underlined the fact what you need to do first for your color maps to obtain the correct skin shade.

I have some Arnold tutes, if you can wait until later, I'll PM you, they may help

Jay
thanks mate. Yes it seems like I do haha, which is all fine ofcourse. some Arnold tutorials wouldnt hurt me, if you got time then feel free to send it to me my friend
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04-04-2014, 12:42 PM   #15
NextDesign
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Quote:
I know there are a few of us here that work in games or vfx and I can tell you a change down the pipeline can have serious issues to someone along the line....just ask them too, this isnt just my snippet of experience talking...its the truth
And it's usually people like me that have to do it...

Skalman, you should take a step back from the model for a few days. Fresh eyes will make it easier to be judgmental on it. Right now there are some more fundamental issues with your anatomy. For example, the transition from his face to his head is very sharp, he has no muscle mass on his calves, his chest looks too big for his waist, and his eyebrows look way too pushed out which kind of makes him look like a neanderthal. If you want this to be realistic, you can't rush things. I know it's tempting, but a likeness can't just be achieved in textures.
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