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24-03-2003, 01:07 PM   #46
abra
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i know that nobody is proud of war!
but i know also that nobody (without propaganda) wants to go to war! and nobody is proud to kill ppl...
and that is what i'm not content with! if u watch cnn all u can see is propaganda!!! the same on the other side of course, it's still a dictature!

and to the anti-bush feelings: i don't like bush since he is president of the usa! all he wants is war and the other thing he does is lobbying for the spender in the industry!

and the worsest of all: the coalition had attacked without the UN OK! so, is this RIGHT? but, before and after the iran-iraq war iraq wasn't even in the us-list of the terrorist countries ! why? because the us needed them, and now after the sowjets they don't need him any longer and now he has to go!

i wouln'd say one word, if the coalition attacked him when he was getting stronger and stronger!
 
24-03-2003, 01:47 PM   #47
kal
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Abra - One reason the UN has not approved is down to money. Russia, France and Germany in one way or another are owed ALOT of money by Iraq, therefor its in the best immediate interests to oppose anything regarding invasion.

The problem with anything as controversial as this is that probably only about 0.00001% of the worlds population know the whole truth about what is really going on, and what the real reasons are.
All we can do is interpret what the media feeds us, which will most likely be some form of lies or propoganda and is (imo) the most depressing fact of any of it - we have all these strong opinions about things we arent allowed to properly understand.

btw nice post Alex - i think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with alot of what you said.
 
24-03-2003, 02:24 PM   #48
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yeah kal u r absolutely right - its upto us to make a valued judgment on what we see and hear and read. We mustnt take any one view for granted that it is entirely the truth. Today, the media is one half of the battle, so of course its not going to be 100% legitimate.

But for me the whole point is this. It doesnt matter how much propaganda there is around us, because most ppl have the intelligence to realise that u can always see who is in the right and who is in the wrong. The truth will always out...especially on a scale such as this...
 
24-03-2003, 03:57 PM   #49
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I appreciate what you've said alexgc. One of my fears of these kind of posts being allowed, was that it would create animosity between the members. I'm glad it's not totally turning out that way. And I hope it doesn't, because this is a great place, and I'd hope no one gets offended or hurt because of contrasting views.

God Bless,
George
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24-03-2003, 04:38 PM   #50
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agreed George

I dont think it will affect our attitude toward eachother...after all we are all here for the sake of our art and no war can change that.

Its healthy that everyone can express their opinion and so far there has been no animosity and I dont expect there to be any. It appears that everyone understands we all own the right to have a say and I think we all know that just because one person has a belief in something - it doesnt neccessarily mean it is right. Im open to all arguements. I dont think anybody is so shallow as to dissmiss all views other than their own.

Anyway, as i said, we are here for our art and that is the main thing
 
24-03-2003, 05:51 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by essahc

I went to a protest at the University of Texas here in Austin yesterday. The local police arrested 500 people for blocking traffic......Man Freedom is not what it used to be.


There is a difference between exercising a right to protest and breaking the law when doing so. If these people blocked traffic because of any other reason they would still be arrested.

I'm sorry but as hard as you try you can't raise a topic like this on a forum like this and not be unbiased.

I voted for George Bush and I support the effort over there. If everyone else on this forum can express their views about this then so can I. I stand by my convictions as an American and if I get blacklisted for my way of thinking then so be it.
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24-03-2003, 05:57 PM   #52
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Hehe.. I too voted for Bush Hildalgo It's always incouraging to see the approval polls. Last I saw was a 70% approval rating for Bush.... Nice!
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24-03-2003, 06:14 PM   #53
d24e
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alex, you said earlyer that a majority of ppl are in favour of the war. I hardly think this is true since all the opinion meters (not sure about the ones in usa) show that over 50% are against it.
Not all people (including myself) feel like they have to go march on the streets for it though.

If you're so worried about the soldiers there, why do you still support the fact that they're out there? You might aswell try to convince bush, blair and co to get them out of there before more casualties fall. Ofcourse I understand this would be embarassing for your country, but there are many other ways to get to Sadam I'm sure.

I'm pretty sure this war is about oil and intimidating the arab world from within, because if you go after Saddam for being a horrible dictator you might aswell go fight all the other dictators around the world (I can assure there are a lot of them).
I'm quite sure the people in Iraq would be more happy if you can get rid of Saddam in a peaceful way that will show them much less harm than dropping bombs on their country. (these also hit them a lot)

I agree with you that Saddam should've been removed in the first golf war (plz don't think that I like this schmuck), but certainly not now because he is a global threat to the western world. This he is certainly not! Terrorist organisations like Al Quada (and many more) are much more interested in hurting us.

You also say "For sure he has been working on manufacturing weapons of mass destruction. The weapons inspectors have never disputed this fact."
Ofcourse they don't, but now they were seriously starting to get a better opinion about Iraq's weapons and within a few months they would've been finished with their report. (the 120 day plan of dr. Hans Blix wich was unfortunatly not heard because Bush started that 48 hours ultimatum)
If most of the countries feel they should give inspectors more time, what makes the us and britain have the right to make it happen like they want it?
Because of their military power? Now who's 'the bad guy'!

Another thing I don't agree on: "Were we supposed to stand idly by? As citizens of the most prosperous nations on Earth, it is our duty to help make everyone lives as fair and decent as we can."
If I'm not mistaken, international aid workers would do a much finer job than the military if only they got as much funding as the war does.



Sry for the length of this post, just wanted to share my opinion here too.

Alex or others who support him, plz don't feel personally insulted. This is not what I'm trying to achieve!
As long as I don't know someone, I'll wait before judging him/her too hard. I'm sure there can be found wonderful people in all parts of the world. racism is for ignorants if you ask me.
plz feel free to comment on any of this.
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24-03-2003, 07:02 PM   #54
mtmckinley
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Quote:
Originally posted by alexgc

and I have to say this - and i know it may well be contentious - so by all means it can be blanked out...but im getting the impression alot lately that all these anti-war feelings are just anti-Bush feelings. Dont get me wrong, im not saying i support Bush, but it looks like ppl are using the war as a vehicle to attack him...
I've also gotten that impression. People should realize that Bush, all by his lonesome, doesn't have the power to do squat... He has to get it through Congress! People act like Bush is the only guy who wanted to start this war and he's the only guy who started it.

The fact is, he's the main guy who TELLS us about what's going on, so people automatically blame him for everything. I realize that as President, that blame for everything comes with the job (if things go well, you're great, if things go bad, you're terrible, even if you personally didn't do a thing different either way. lol).
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24-03-2003, 07:44 PM   #55
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>alex, you said earlyer that a majority of ppl are in favour of the war. I hardly >>>think this is true since all the opinion meters (not sure about the ones in usa)
>show that over 50% are against it.

Actually, I hardly think that is true, since most of the polls I've seen, (including US and Britian polls) support what needs to be done.

>If you're so worried about the soldiers there, why do you still support the fact
>that they're out there? You might aswell try to convince bush, blair and co to
>get them out of there before more casualties fall. Ofcourse I understand this
>would be embarassing for your country, but there are many other ways to get
>to Sadam I'm sure.

Well I, am worried for them, but support that they're out there because I support the cause and their mission. I don't see how it would be embarassing? It would be sad for the Iraqi people especially if we left this half done.. that would be a mistake.. to bomb the cities and everything being done, only to leave them in shambles and not complete what's being set out to do? No, that would be way wrong.

>I'm pretty sure this war is about oil and intimidating the arab world from within, >?because if you go after Saddam for being a horrible dictator you might aswell
>go fight all the other dictators around the world (I can assure there are a lot of
>them).

Na, that's not it. It's been said, time and again, that it's to liberate the Iraqi people from this thug. If it was for oil, why didn't we do it durning the gulf war? Why aren't we going after others like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, that have oil too?
There's no need to intimidate, they are well aware. It's a matter of bringing peace to the region, and for peace to be there, Saddam needs to leave. He did not, so it's his fault this is happening.

>I'm quite sure the people in Iraq would be more happy if you can get rid of
>Saddam in a peaceful way that will show them much less harm than dropping
>bombs on their country. (these also hit them a lot)

Again, he was told to leave.. what more could be done?

>I agree with you that Saddam should've been removed in the first golf war (plz >don't think that I like this schmuck), but certainly not now because he is a
>global threat to the western world. This he is certainly not! Terrorist
>organisations like Al Quada (and many more) are much more interested in
>hurting us.

How do you know he's not a threat? He has he changed since the first gulf war?
No! I doubt anyone would believe he's not a threat. It's also been confirmed that there are connections between Al Quada and Hussein.


>You also say "For sure he has been working on manufacturing weapons of mass >destruction. The weapons inspectors have never disputed this fact."
>Ofcourse they don't, but now they were seriously starting to get a better opinion >about Iraq's weapons and within a few months they would've been finished with >their report. (the 120 day plan of dr. Hans Blix wich was unfortunatly not heard >because Bush started that 48 hours ultimatum)
>If most of the countries feel they should give inspectors more time, what makes >the us and britain have the right to make it happen like they want it?
>Because of their military power? Now who's 'the bad guy'!

I don't know about you, but 12years seems like a long time to me. It's obvious Hussein was using a delay tactic, like he did in 98'. One week he said he didn't have any missles(can't remember the name of the missle) next week, Oops they have some. He was given too much time.
The bad guy is Saddam! Who do you think it is?

>Another thing I don't agree on: "Were we supposed to stand idly by? As citizens >of the most prosperous nations on Earth, it is our duty to help make everyone
>lives as fair and decent as we can."
>If I'm not mistaken, international aid workers would do a much finer job than
>the military if only they got as much funding as the war does.

Yeah, you are mistaken. sorry. I don't think Aid workers could get Saddam to leave the country. Saddam has violated too many of the guidlines set since the gulf war, like the food for oil program.. He didn't give the food to his people like he was supposed to.

Freedom isn't free.. there is a price to pay. Thank God for countries that care about other countries well being. How easy it would be to turn away and not care about anyone but ourselves, but that is not the right thing to do.

I hope this sharing of opinions will help us get through this.

George
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24-03-2003, 07:48 PM   #56
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Hehehe, that's true McKinley Congress, both democrat and republican have voted unanimously in support of the war.
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24-03-2003, 08:45 PM   #57
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ok. Now some people are saying 'How can you be proud of this' country'

If you actualy beleive that this is a bad country., i must say, you are the stupidest ass ever. There are alot of countries out there, where if you protested against the war, you cuold be killed. Saddam helped out with the 911 attacks. In my mind, he is almost as bad as Ossama. Some of our troops must die. Some civilians in Iraq are going to die. But in turn, we will be able to stop Saddam from use Nucks, or Bio-Chem weapons, or aiding other terrorists in the destruction of our country. He called us evil. He said that god has promised our downfall. If that dosn't sound like somebody who is going to do anything they can to kill inocent people, (He killed a few thousand of his own people with musard gas) then you should just move to the moon and forget about it.
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24-03-2003, 08:54 PM   #58
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about the polls, it's your word against mine. I won't convince you and you won't convince me I'm sure.

the embarassement part is something I thought the americans might have since they're so patriotic and love their army for being the strongest in the world. However, by pulling out of there, I didn't mean to let it be like it is now. Ofcourse We'll all have to help rebuild Iraq and continue with diplomacy in a peaceful way.

Plz don't believe everything the media tells you. It's full of propaganda on cnn, don't know about the other channels in us, since I can't see them. You augt to see european newsreports on this. Much more objective, since we're not directly involved in it.
and why is it that you have authorization to decide who can be leader of a country and who can't?
I think this is more of a matter for the international community to agree on (UN).


What more could be done???
Listen to the rest of the world's leaders! Listen to all professors who are studying this crisis. Not all peaceful means have been used, so stop going to war so fast!

How is Saddam a threat to you? He has a very weak army and is absolutely not threatening anyone. The only people that suffer are his own, but surely there are other ways to help them. So let's just make it very clear here:
IRAQ FORMS NO THREAT TO THE USA. TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS DO.

Seriously now, it's been confirmed that there are links between Iraq and Al Quada?
THERE IS NO PROOF AT ALL!!!!
Rumsfeld says that to get you all to go to war, but he has no proof at all! They're still searching for it, but have not found it. Why do you think this is called an unlegitimate war??

Since he was on the edge of being attacked it seems reasonable that he held some weapons back. He's also a patriotic guy who wants the best for his country. Unfortunatly he does this in a disturbed way.
Oh and let's see how many secret weapons the US is developing atm. I'm sure the inspectors would find a lot more in your weapon labs than in all of the middle east.

You obviously didn't understand what I ment about the aidworkers. If they are allowed to help the people with more funding, then the people will be better (obvious isn't it)
Meanwhile however... the UN and inspectors keep pressure on Saddam so he gets rid of his weapons. Then he can't do much harm to anyone.

Plz understand that a lot of countries are sick and tired of your interventions. Why can't you let the international community (UN and NATO for example) decide together what the best solutions for wolrdproblems are, while we all solve problems in our own countries (like the economy problems now)? They are all experts, the americans don't necessarily know all things best.

1 more thing: doesn't it seem odd to you that under Clinton economy was going fine and no one had to worry about Iraq. Now along comes Bush jr. and all goes downhill in economy and you've had 2 wars in 2 years. think about it.



again, don't take any of this as an insult plz. Feel free to comment. I rather like this thread.
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24-03-2003, 08:56 PM   #59
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Quote:
Another thing I don't agree on: "Were we supposed to stand idly by? As citizens of the most prosperous nations on Earth, it is our duty to help make everyone lives as fair and decent as we can."
I guess what bothers me about this is that I know in the USA there is a definite split between how much people make, but look at Hussein. This guy is worth how much???
What is the average income of this self-appointed dictator's people? ...like $70 a month (not to mention that he is only dictator because he killed the dictator before him).
Just looking at how he runs this, would it make any sense to send a bunch of aid workers over there and hand over money, food, materials to this guy?...because don't fool yourself if you think he would distribute this to the people whom really need it.
Listen, there is never a good reason to kill someone for your own benefit, but can anyone here stand up and say that their country did not do this?...or at least convince the UN to use the US to do this for them?...thanks a million France.
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24-03-2003, 09:04 PM   #60
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Ultragames seriously now.
where do you get the idea that Saddam has Nukes and is linked to terrorists?

Until you get some real proof to state this, plz stop about it. It's stuff that Rumsfelld and Powell want you to believe, even though it has been proven by inspectors that they couldn't possibly have this kind of weapons.

He did not help out with 911 attacks, you must be mistaking him with Taliban and warlords in Afghanistan.

And ofcourse he's calling you criminals, you're invading his country ffs! He's saying all that shit about the US to motivate his troops in combat (and he's doing quite a good job, let's not deny it). Let's just hope he doesn't do a too good job or you're all screwed.
If Korea decides to send a test missile over your west coast, you'll call them criminals too.

Edit: forgot one more thing
Isn't Bush constantly saying "may God bless America and our troops"? I don't see how this is different for Saddam.
Plz note also that the pope himself is against Bush for saying that. Surely Bush doesn't feel he knows better about what God would want and what not.
I'm atheist btw, do don't go preaching me about God plzj/k
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Last edited by d24e; 24-03-2003 at 09:09 PM.