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24-03-2003, 09:05 PM   #61
drj
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it looks like what the US has gotten out of being the UN Police for so many years is just disgust from other nations. I hate to say it, but I really wish we would step back and not be involved except for in our own country anymore. Taking care of all our own problems here at home..even though it would be selfish at least people wouldn't hate us anymore...I guess until they needed help from the UN again and there wasn't anyone there to help them.
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24-03-2003, 09:08 PM   #62
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It is called a dirty bomb. It uses depleated Urainium. I my self know how to make one, why couldn't Saddam. I dont personaly know how he had aided Terrorists. I dont realy watch CNN that closly. But I do know, that it had been mentioned in Pres. Bush speaches, and on many news channels.
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24-03-2003, 09:09 PM   #63
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Quote:
And ofcourse he's calling you criminals, you're invading his country ffs! He's saying all that shit about the US to motivate his troops in combat (and he's doing quite a good job, let's not deny it).
Yeah, maybe the reason you don't see plane after plane after plane dropping bombs like last time is that we are trying to save some civilians. The only reason it LOOKS like they are doing a "good job" is because we are trying to be as careful as possible.

and what is exactly your proof that he isn't funding the Taliban or Al Quada?
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24-03-2003, 09:12 PM   #64
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Ok. Im done with this topic before I realy get mad. All of you anti-American shit heads realy piss me off. If you dont suport the war fine. But support the troops. Support the people that are forced to go out, and risk there lives, to help inocent people from a violent dictator.
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24-03-2003, 09:28 PM   #65
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c'mon Ultra don't give up...its just harmless debate.
I even admit that all of this could have been handled better by the US. But everyone's history has blood on its shores. All things that make a difference in this world politically have been looked at poorly until years later. Everyone's media is full of propaganda.
It's easy to look and judge from some places in this world. But if the US hadn't stepped in during other parts of history I wonder how some of us might have grown up differently.
I guess we will never know...but go ahead and bash us anyway!
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24-03-2003, 09:33 PM   #66
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Hey d24e im not offended in the slightest, in fact quite the opposite, im pleased that u want to contest my views

I would like to reply to some of ur own comments tho if i may.

Quote:
Originally posted by d24e
Not all people (including myself) feel like they have to go march on the streets for it though.
This is exactly my point tho. If there was any such pro-war protest do u have any idea what kind of outcry there would be? Anyway, as far as the opinion polls go here in the UK the majority support a war.

Quote:
there are many other ways to get to Sadam I'm sure.
Yes sure, but it seems that all other avenues have been exhausted. Diplomacy certainly wouldnt rid Iraq of Saddam. Personally I wouldve preferred some sort of CIA assasination - always a mystery to me why no covert operation was undertaken. In any case though, war had to be considered an option - as Bush and Blair said - it was a last resort. Would we just go on giving him more and more time?

Quote:
if you go after Saddam for being a horrible dictator you might aswell go fight all the other dictators around the world
Yes well as far as i can tell that is they policy. Remember, Bush's statement about "The Axis of Evil"? North Korea and Iran added to Iraq. Im sure one way or another they will be tackled also. I hope to God war will be avoided but u can never discount it - because there simply might be no alternative

Quote:
certainly not now because he is a global threat to the western world. This he is certainly not! Terrorist organisations like Al Quada (and many more) are much more interested in hurting us
Well it is all relative as to how much a global threat the present Iraqi regime is. In addition, by global threat, I dont just mean Iraq's threat to the US or UK. If Saddam does have WMD's there is no limit to how much instability there would be in the middle east, particularly in event of their use against Israel or Kuwait or Iran for example.

I dont know if u have heard but the coalition forces are also fighting against an Al Qaeda related terrorist group in Northern Iraq (name escapes me at the mo). So this suggestion the Iraq has no links to Al Qaeda is unfounded.

Quote:
dr. Hans Blix wich was unfortunatly not heard because Bush started that 48 hours ultimatum)
If most of the countries feel they should give inspectors more time, what makes the us and britain have the right to make it happen like they want it?
U cant really say Dr Blix wasnt heard. Iraq had 12 years to do what was neccessary. Time and time again they either prevented weapons inspectors from doing their job or kicked them out of Iraq. At one point there were no inspections for 2 years I think because Iraq did not co-operate.

Most of the countries didnt necessarily want to give the weapons inspectors more time, it's that they didnt want to goto war without UN backing. In fact only a few countries wanted inspectors to have more time. Furthermore its quite suspicious that those countries that did oppose have vested interests in Iraq...

Quote:
If I'm not mistaken, international aid workers would do a much finer job than the military if only they got as much funding as the war does.
You cant really compare these, simply because they do different jobs. And in this kind of situation they need to work side by side

Ultragames, calm down mate - there is no need to get worked up. Everyone is entitled to their opinion whether u think it is right or wrong. I think everyone hopes for the safety of all troops and civilians involved in the war

And guys...lets keep it civilised


btw - do u have any idea how long it has taken me to get all the bold and quote bits correct lolol I might start a war over it :argue:

Last edited by alexgc; 24-03-2003 at 09:49 PM.
 
24-03-2003, 09:50 PM   #67
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Hehe.. it's obvious your mind will not be changed I would change my mind if anything you said made sense. CNN is so anit american, that I can't stand watching it. Believe me, some news casters are more anti war than you could possibly be. If european countries were not at all involved in this, they wouldn't care would they? I'm sure there's propaganda there as well.

>How is Saddam a threat to you? He has a very weak army and is absolutely not >threatening anyone. The only people that suffer are his own, but surely there
>are other ways to help them. So let's just make it very clear here:
>IRAQ FORMS NO THREAT TO THE USA

People were saying the same thing about Al Quada and Bin Laden just before
9-11.

>He's also a patriotic guy who wants the best for his country

Wow, now I know you are very ill informed. hehe..

>1 more thing: doesn't it seem odd to you that under Clinton economy was going >fine and no one had to worry about Iraq. Now along comes Bush jr. and all goes >downhill in economy and you've had 2 wars in 2 years. think about it.

Clinton is one the worst presidents we've ever had, it's a known fact. How many iraqi's died during the mid/late 90's? under oppression? not free? We're here now cause he didn't do anything! Things have changed since 9-11 We're not going to wait around for something to happen. Also Clinton went to war on Kosovo without the support of the UN.

Further more, there are 30 countries in this coalition, supporting the war.

Anyways, you're getting off track. This war is to liberate the Iraqi people from a ruthless dictator, and to ensure peace for you and everyone else. No matter how you look at it, that's how it is, that's what it is.
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Last edited by GCastro; 24-03-2003 at 10:03 PM.
 
24-03-2003, 10:20 PM   #68
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---- "And ofcourse he's calling you criminals, you're invading his country ffs! He's saying all that shit about the US to motivate his troops in combat (and he's doing quite a good job, let's not deny it). Let's just hope he doesn't do a too good job or you're all screwed." -----

You know how he is motivating his troops to go into combat? well... first of all.. iraq is a VERY VERY rich country... But instead of saddam taking the money to rebuild and reform the country and all... he spends it all on himself! he has tons and tons of his own palaces that are worth countless amount of money... with amazing architecture.. and even toilets made of gold!!

None of the people in his country have any freedom, and are also very poor. So then the question "why dont the people just vote him out of his dictatorship?" may come up... well.. if anybody said ANYTHING bad about him or the way he rules iraq they would be imediatly exicuted.. when they had the vote to keep him as a dictator, 100% of the people voted for him to stay... do you think thats because they like the way he is ruling everybody? no! its because they will execute anybody that votes againt him.

Do you know how he is 'motivating' his troops to fight in the war? well.. its not because they are so patriotic and just love there country so much.. its because he pays $25,000 to these people that are sooo poor, and have no food and no humane places to live.. and will protect there families if they capture and kill one of our people. he also says stuff on iraqi tv like "god has ordered you to cut there(the people trying to give the iraqi people freedom) throats." And also... they will make innocent civilians fight us in the war.. or else he will kill both them, and there families!

This isnt a peaceful guy! you cant just talk to him and explain how he shouldnt be doing bad things... or else he will just have you killed.

IF the US wanted to, we could just bomb Iraq to the point where there would be no people living there at all.. and even spare the oil and take it (which we would never do of course!) we are only bombing his palaces, and wherever else we believe him and his leaders are.. so we can free iraq and hopefully there country can start running like normal again!

I dont know what 'propaganda' you are listening to... but the people in the US arent die hard military fans... i mean, we support our arms forces and all.. but not to the point where we will all feel embarassed and boycot our government if they dont kill alot of people or make a mistake.

I want some of you to imagine what it would be like to live in Iraq. Imagine if... you knew that he just killed thousands of people by testing out how harmful mustard gas is, and you wanted to get out of the country, but you knew that you couldnt, or else you and your loved ones would be killed. Don't you think you would be glad that somebody is trying to come to help you?

History repeats itself.. We could have prevented the deaths of the countless amount of people that died in the holocaust before it happend.. and we could have prevented the thousands of innocent people that died in the world trade center attacts (many of the people were mothers and fathers to kids parents in my school) but we didnt want to get involved! So do you understand why its a good thing that we are getting involved now? Im glad we arent just going to let them do what ever they want.. because who knows that if in 5-10 years, saddam somehow gets a chemical or biological weapon over into the us, or in england, and kills one of us??

This war was our last resort. we have done EVERY thing we can to avoid it. But in the end, there is nothing else we could have done or said to get this guy to stop treating his people so horrible, and stop the threats he has on all of us.

Im sorry, im not that good at writing. Just do the best to try and understand what i am saying.
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24-03-2003, 10:25 PM   #69
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And also.. just to let some people know... the US is has the right to take away some of our rights during times of crisists and war.

And also, from what i hear (im not posotive!!) there are some pro war protest going on in NYC.
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Last edited by dbirider; 24-03-2003 at 10:27 PM.
 
24-03-2003, 10:58 PM   #70
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here is a link to what some people might consider propaganda...I don't know what these people would have to gain by making this up, but maybe they would.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_...son_of_saddam/
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24-03-2003, 11:03 PM   #71
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I'm getting quite close to closing this thread... I'll give it another chance, though. NO COUNTRY BASHING. I don't care what country it is.
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24-03-2003, 11:04 PM   #72
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sweet, got a lot of replys here. Some of them I found true, some not.
let me just go over some of those... (here we go again, lol)

ultragames, I've heard of plans to make A-bombs on the internet (my brother saw it few years ago). However that doesn't mean every Joe can make one, cuz the stuff that's dangerous in them is highly illegal and hard to get to.
And plz, stop believing what Bush says in his speeches. It is just filled with dumb statements that are very contradictory to what professors and doctors have to say about it (and I do believe they still know best).

drj, I could ask you the same question: What's your proof that there IS a link between them?
I am just saying, until there is proof that he does we should assume that he doesn't (like the justice system in many free countries). Not come up with made-up information (like Powell did, this was confirmed by the inspectors)

I said this in one of my first msg's: "As long as I don't know someone, I'll wait before judging him/her too hard."
What I ment by this is: I don't have any problems with the troops or with all of you personally. I do have a problem with the mentality that war is the answer at this time, when there was clearly more time for diplomacy. Be it convenient or not to wait another 2-3 months.

alex, I'm not sure what you're implying in your first reply, but plz know that I am defenitly anti-war. Maybe in US and Britain you have many people that support the war, but in rest of the world people are either neutral or against it. Sometimes this is not represented by their governement though. (eg: spain)

The peaceful ways have NOT been exhausted, that's exactly my point and that of Belgium, France and Germany (and less active governements who are against)
Dr Blix said that he needed only 120 days until he was done, what is so long about that if you can avoid a war and casualties by it?
btw: covert assasination missions were undertaken by US and who knows else, but they failed. Saddam's too clever it seems.

Why is it that only the US has to go after these countries, why not get support from others? If he can give them a legitimate reason to fight them, they'll certainly come along.

I know that Iraq has some big issues with IsraŽl, so why don't we just send more Patriot systems to the allied countries in middle east (like NATO did with turkey and US with Israel) instead of invading the other country just because it's more convenient for our economy?
plz no more stuff about US wants to get rid of saddam, not for oil. There is simply no reason for US to this legitimate. You can't go invade other countries as you seem fit. And this is exactly what US is doing now.

Yes inspectors have had a lot of problems with Iraq, but finally this is over (because of UN pressure) and we are allowed. Now before their job is over, you want to go further. This is simply mad.
The opposing countries aren't the only ones with vesting interests in Iraq. So do the US. Bush is not crazy enough to risk his soldiers for getting rid of one man if there was no benefit afterwards.

aid workers and military side by side, idd! That'd be perfect. Just like that plan of inspectors under supervision of UN troops.
What US is doing however, is have only military get involved.


cgcastro
plz quote my entire sentence wich is this: "He's also a patriotic guy who wants the best for his country. <b>Unfortunatly he does this in a disturbed way.</b>"
I believe that in a way this man loves his country, only he has a sick way of expressing it (eg: killing his own people)
You could say the same about Hitler, surely he loved his country but he's just freakin' mad in showing it!

Clinton helped to get your economy up a lot. It seems to me you should all appreciate this. Now look at the situation in your country, many people are losing jobs (also in Europe as a consequence), while the rich get more prosperous by Bush's tax reliefs.
Why not make sure all is well in your own country before going off for war on your own. Let the international organisations do this.

30 countries in that coalition, yes. You may find it interesting to know that Belgium is also in this!
Because we give transport by boat in our port (Antwerp) for US weapons. Meanwhile our government is anti-war as hell! Also you'll find many other countries in that coalition who have nothing to do with it and who don't support it. Some easter-european and south-american countries, they are just walking along with Bush for the money. Not because they want Saddam gone.
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24-03-2003, 11:18 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by mtmckinley
I'm getting quite close to closing this thread... I'll give it another chance, though. NO COUNTRY BASHING. I don't care what country it is.
Maybe you should close this thread. This community is made up of individuals from around the world. We are all here because of one thing: Maya

When a subject like this comes up, everyone has their own view and there are as many different opinions as there are people on the board.

The longer this thread stays up, the more it will degrade. I, for one, enjoy the experience of seeing others' ideas and learning from them here. I'm here to learn more about Maya, not to get into a political discussion (argument) about how the world is being run.
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24-03-2003, 11:24 PM   #74
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I must have given the wrong impression here about my feelings for Saddam. I am aware of all the horrible stuff this man has done, and I do want him out of the country or dead.
But once again I say: An unlegitimate war, not supported by the UN is not the way to handle this best!

You say:" This war was our last resort. we have done EVERY thing we can to avoid it. But in the end, there is nothing else we could have done or said to get this guy to stop treating his people so horrible, and stop the threats he has on all of us."
If you would just listen to what the inspectors, Blix and Baradhei said you would know that this is not true. If you gave them a few more months time, and they concluded that Iraq had such weapons, I assure every member of UN security council would support the US.
But you simply can't take such matters into your own hands because you're the strongest nation of the world.

Do you know that the current gouverment in Afghanistan is doing almost nothing about the warlords that are regaining control and letting Al Qaeda back to their cave hideouts? The situation for civilians there has not improved at all. This is a fact, sad as it may be. So I'm afraid the same will happen to Iraq.




plz Mike don't close this thread. I'm not trying to bash other countries or persons here, just saying how I think it is.
Hidalgo, I'm sure there are a lot of you that don't care at all about this discussion. But some of us do care and like arguing with eachother (I know I do that's for sure) so why not ignore us and leave us be. Eventually it'll die out I'm sure.
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Last edited by d24e; 24-03-2003 at 11:27 PM.
 
24-03-2003, 11:36 PM   #75
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I agree. No country bashing. How ever. I think everyones opinion has been stated. Any further coments may lead to fighting. Dont want that.
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