Introduction to Maya - Modeling Fundamentals Vol 1
This course will look at the fundamentals of modeling in Maya with an emphasis on creating good topology. We'll look at what makes a good model in Maya and why objects are modeled in the way they are.
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16-01-2004
, 06:09 AM
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Do humans have choice?
Choice is the act of choosing. To choose is to take by preference which is to reguard something more highly than something else. We create values for different items by basing them upon past experiences of our life. Past experiences are things that have already happened, so if this is the case, choice is predetermined. Thus, every action in life is merely a reaction of a previous action. We are robots out of control.....
"We create values for different items by basing them upon past experiences of our life." is the line in question of my theory. Some people want proof of this, but it seems like common sense to me. How do I better explain this idea?
Perhaps you would like to argue against my theory? Feel free to do so. I love debating such things. I would just like more insight on this because not many people seem to venture out to ideas like this. Just make sure you have logical facts to back up whatever you say as I have.
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16-01-2004
, 07:43 AM
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I do see 1 big flaw in your theoryIf you were presented with 2 choices, each choice being something that you have never seen, heard, or even known of before. by your theory i simply wouldn't be able to make a choice! Yet with a simple decision it can be done
The only constant is change...
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16-01-2004
, 08:40 AM
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hope that was clear..
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16-01-2004
, 12:50 PM
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Let's say you have two apples. They are of equal value. They are the same color, size, shape, have the same texture, the light glares off them the same way, etc. You are ambidextrious (neither right or left handed) as well. You are to choose one of the apples. You choose the left apple. Why did you choose that one over the right one?
Pony mentioned that it might be a gamble. In my terms, I might say that the human brain was hardwired to supply a decision with a random value that is used to choose, however I do not believe this to be true because even random commands in computer programs are based upon some logical algorithm. So, choosing the left apple simply because your brain made a random decision is not an option.
What I believe is the deciding factor, is not an attribute of the apple, but of yourself. You can take extremely subtle events into account that would have at least some effect upon a decision. Perhaps your left arm was slightly less numb that the right, so you used it to grab an apple. Since you did, you will immidiately bring logic into the equation and choose the left apple since it is closest to your left arm and by some previous event in your life, you already know that it is more efficient to grab the left apple rather than the right because it IS closer. Obviously, minut factors such as these work only on a subconcious level. This is why it is usually so difficult to interpret decisions like these. You can easily imagine how many of these tiny factors can exist. Note that all of them still hold true to my original argument that they must be in the past. (your arm being numb already happened before you made the decision to choose the left apple)
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16-01-2004
, 12:54 PM
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Let's go a step further and say that ALL aspects of the situation were equal. Not only are the two apples equal, but the right and left sides of your body experience the same things and are not different from one another. The environment you are placed in is equal on both sides as well. NOW why did you choose the left apple over the right? Obviously, you cannot possibly use anything I stated above in the previous explanation because everything is equal.
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16-01-2004
, 02:17 PM
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you definetly make a good statement and I think you are right on the money that everything we do is based on passed decisions and experiences. At the end of the day you are still going to make a choice. I think the whole problem we have is that we try to make the best choice so we do not end up getting f'upped at the end. I am not going to base a decision on what I don't know but on what I do know. I don't think humans are out of control but by doing this is how we got where we are today. Anyways, Hope this makes sense just helping Darkware sort of prove his point.
Darkware can aaply this theory to anything.
sports, voting on a political party, learning, etc.
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16-01-2004
, 03:52 PM
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im hungry
in one hand there is a peice of cake, in the other a peice of pie, i enjoy both of the deserts the exact same way, from here i can simply choose which i would rather have.
Imagination will always lead to knowledge, while knowledge may not necessarily bring fourth imagination.
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16-01-2004
, 05:09 PM
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fire_master: that is correct. What are you trying to prove?
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Ok, I've been thinking for a bit and have come to the conclusion that if the factors of both sides of a decision were exactly the same as in the example I provided above, the choice would be impossible to make just as Elemenopee stated beforehand. I'm not sure what we as humans would do in such a case, but it is nearly impossible since there are so many factors that go into choices. You could almost say that it never happens.
Even if such a paradox were to occur with each side of an equation being perfectly equal, I suppose one could not make a decision. In the example I provided at the beginning, the apple would not have been taken in the first place if such conditions were present.
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17-01-2004
, 12:18 AM
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Also regarding that choice made to be a gamble, what you say is true, the problem is you are making it seem like this is some sort of risky exception. On the contrary you could call any decision made to be a gamble. This is due to nothing being a total guarantee, you are gambling on the assumption that the information/experiances you are using to evaluate the situation are true. Which could very easily prove to be wrong. Say for example you associated red candy with being your favorite, and thusly chose to eat it instead of the purple one. Yet that very red candy could very well be filled with poison and end up killing you. Since you had assumed that all candy was safe to eat, you made a decision based upon false assumptions or even not all information available, which is the definition of a gamble.
Darkware: I think that personally humans do have choice. I completly agree with you that our past experiances and preferences play an almost complete dominance over our choices. However I have a different look on the definition of choice itself. While you boil it down to preference, i believe this is only an aspect of choice. That choice really is the act of making a decision. That even with the most preference for 1 choice over another, until a decision is made, there is still an opportunity to let other influences sway your decision. Think of it this way, if humans really had no choice, that choices were automatically made. Why is it that we even have a thought process? I mean by your definition we shouldnt even have to think about making a choice it is made for us by the influence of past knowledge, and to me that would make us nothing more than a computer. Yet unlike computers, we posses a thought process which is based largely upon doubt, and emotions. WHich all leads me to feel that we do posses choice.
I think there is just too many opportunities before before a choice is made where conflicting influences may be absorbed. So that when the time comes to make a decision, you are making that choice only after you have compared and contrasted both sides of the problem, and come to a conclusion which you then act upon.
The only constant is change...
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17-01-2004
, 01:01 AM
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A choice you make, makes you different from every one else, but makes you the same.
A choice you make, has just been made by some one on the other side of the world.
A choice you make, can mean the deference between Life and death.
You can choose Between Maya or Max or light wave? But we all know what one you chose.
My point
There are only two Choices you can make.
Bad or Good.
If a person can’t Make that kind of Choice, he or she shouldn’t make one.
just my 2 cents
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17-01-2004
, 01:01 AM
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Now im sure you'd branch off saying,well which of the 100 would you eat first. Teh answer is quite simple, than no object can be in the same exact place as another object. On MUST be closer, OR, if arranged in a circle around you in exact distances, then the obvious choice would be that which is directly infron of the direction you are looking.
How ever, i can argue this theory further. You say there is no choice, but it is also posible that EVERYTHING is choice. Yes, our so called 'choices' are based on past experiances, however we choose which moments to attribute to the present event. We interpret weather it apply to this situation, and evaluate all the posible outcomes of the event. We all know that some might look at a past event, and a present one, and Come up with TOTALY different answers.
But you might argue that that is because of there own personal past events. wouldnt you.
What i say. Is that choice is a state of mind. It both exists to the fullest extent of the imagination, and it dosnt exist at all.
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17-01-2004
, 03:03 AM
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Now... about thought process. I'd like to say I am highly surprized you have come to this conclusion so quickly in this thread. It took me a lot longer when I first considered the concept several months ago. You say that if humans did not have choice, which implies that decisions are already made, that we would cease to have thought process. My argument against this is that you cannot arrive at the end conclusion to making a decision until you get through other minor decisions or realizations beforehand. Our brain cannot process all factors that figure into making a choice at once. The tougher decision a person has to make, the longer it is going to take them to decide.
You may argue that the human brain is much more powerful than a regular computer, however the human brain has a lot more data to process than what a computer would. Also, I believe that doubt and emotion are simple facts just like everything else. I really hope I don't have to explain that point though because that gets pretty deep. lol
Ultragames: with your theory about taking all apples instead of none when a choice cannot be made due to each side of an equation being perfectly equal, you add a new factor into the event which is that the apples are needed to survive. In my example, the apples are not nessesary, so such a thing would not apply. With this being said, it seems logical to take none instead of all if the choice cannot be made.
VERY GOOD POINTS EVERYONE. I am highly impressed. Please remember that I said that humans do in fact have choice, but not in the sense that we think of it at first. The definition, when linked to preference and past events, would suggest that we do make choices. The DIFFERENCE is whether or not we have free will. I believe that we do not. Looking back, I wish I had refered to some things as "free will" instead of choice, but I'm stil trying to learn new things about it all, so it couldn't be helped.
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17-01-2004
, 05:22 AM
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"The DIFFERENCE is whether or not we have free will." And there in lies the rub. Humans having choice is just a lower level understanding of what free will and choice is really about. Unfortunatly what I believe about all this can not be backed up with facts or factual statements. So, please forgive me. Also I must state that this is an over symplification of my understanding on the subject but it's a beginning.
We believe we have the ability to make choices because we have free will. This is not really true in the sense that it is commonly understood. I will state my arguement as a hypothesis.
This is not the only life we have lifed or will live. We incarnate to learn so our creator assists us in arranging each life with a purpose and who we are, where we are born, and the major events of each life is set into place before we incarnate. (predetermination)
In each life we must first come to understand that we have a predetermined path and purpose. Until we do that we are easily seduced into thinking that we have all these choices. When in truth that is only a distraction. Once one realises that they have a predetermined path and purpose choice as we commonly know it simply ceases to exist. Now you are able to see the real "choice" which is whether or not to follow that path and purpose. This chioce is actually an act of free will.
As I said I have no facts to prove my statements. But as I said to Darkware one night, just because man believed the world was flat because he could not prove it was round at that time did not negate the fact that it has always been round.
"Si vis pacem para bellum" if you desire peace, prepare for war.
Last edited by PonysGirl; 17-01-2004 at 05:37 AM.
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17-01-2004
, 09:18 PM
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I mean again if our thought process was totally dedicated to comming to that final decision, then why can I think about whatever I want, especially about things that require no decision. Like wow i'm looking at the sky, it surely is a nice blue out today...hmm keyboards are layed out funky o if i could meet mr qwerty myself, or even i'm hungry!
Or even i could carry on an entire conversation with myself...from just inside my head....hey stop looking at me like that
...it's normal to do 
The fact that I just woke up has odly enough led me to another thing. Dreams. Why do we dream? They do nothing more than preoccupy our mind while the rest of our body is shut down almost completly. They accomplish nothing since you don't normally make too many decisions in dreams that you go out and act upon the next day.
Ponysgirl: Just had to bring in the whole meaning of life didn't ya? Heh jk great stuff in regards to reincarnation I am going to have to both agree...and disagree with you.
While i don't necessarily believe in the concept of reincarnation at this stage in my life. I do think that a sort of passing along of information does occure. Rather I think we pass along some of this information through the creation of our children. That it is not just necessarily set aside for our next form to posses.
My problems with the idea of reincarnation come from this, I mean if truly we keep on reincarnating, why havn't we been able to achieve a eutopian society? i mean say you ended your life by getting shot, wouldn't your next learn that such things as weapons shouldn't exist? Or why is it that events in history have the funny way of repeating themselves? In all these thousands of years, shouldn't we have learned by now to avoid war? Granted there are ignorant people living today, some even who may think that such events as the holocaust never existed, since they weren't there to see it for themselvess. While such people might end up becomming our next leaders somehow...and they let their ignorance leads them to repeat the actions from the past, I think that the amount of such people really is too small to let this be any sort of solution.
Dunno if you see what i mean in that...but like i said i just woke up
and my pants sure do seem like they would make a nice shirt to wear...
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17-01-2004
, 09:41 PM
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Why do you think of "anything" you want, you ask? Yes, at first appearance, such things do seem extremely spontanious and random, but there is a reason for everything. As I stated before, every action is just a reaction of another action if you can understand that.
Your example: "wow i'm looking at the sky, it surely is a nice blue out today"
Some factors that go into why you thought that: 1) you were outside or were looking through a window. 2) you were not preoccupied with another task, therefor your mind had time to drift off to another relatively insignificant item. 3) there were less clouds in the sky than there usually are on any other day and the color was more radiant perhaps as well. 4) your mood caused you to think of such a thing because it was in a state of peace more so than it usually is.
I could go on and on about the factors that go into why people do what they do. Note that all of those factors were present previous to the event of you saying that the sky was blue except for ONE. (now we get into something called "patterns") The one factor, which was the last factor you came across before saying what you did, was the one that triggered an embedded pattern inside your brain. Think of it like a command in a program:
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eventa=sky is visible
eventb=not preoccupied with important task
eventc=less clouds in sky
eventd=peaceful mood
eventx=comment on the blue sky
IF eventa,b,c,d=true then x=true
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There are so many variables that go into decision making that it is impossible for any one human to fully explain it, so I don't expect you to understand this at all from this little exert of my brain.
Main point I'm making is that every action is just a reaction of another action or series of combined actions.
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