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30-04-2010, 12:08 AM   #1
G-Man
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Theoretical Physics and the Quantum Mind
Ok, so here it is.

A thread on theoretical physics, cosmology and Quantum mechanics....or pretty much any other theoretical science one can think of i suppose.

So lets start out with a discussion on Jan Hendrik Schön. If you know who he is, or even know the name, you'll be both mistified and enraged. Perhaps the most brilliant theoretical mind ever, his theories even inspired Hawking. solving the the Problem posed by Moore's Law by lacing silicone with amino acids and goring the processor paths along the chip using organic molecules, to break the barrier presented by the above law? Sad that his beautiful theories are now almost all considered bunk because he turned out to be a fraud, Even if his test results and mathematics were fraudulent i think that the theories behind thme should still be explored because they seem alot of times to be like commonsense solutions to massive problems.

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30-04-2010, 01:34 AM   #2
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Yes the ideas are interesting, and at the time, relatively (in potential, and promise) groundbreaking. I would compare it to the Fleischmann-Pons Coldfusion ''incident'', Obviously not on the same scale. The announcement, followed by the research grants and the like, of course most could not fully replicate the results, and non of science never really made full sense. I don't think they were ever accused of falsifying data, but not many people could replicate it either, and when they did, it was a 1 in 20 chance.
And even now some people are still looking into it, but no one has come up with anything substantially (as far as I know, correct if wrong).

The organic circuitry is different in that idea makes sense scientifically, but a lot of the data presented was fraudulent
(as mentioned). When there was an investigation all the data was deleted, and all of his experiments were disposed of.

"He admitted to having falsified some data and stated he did so to show more convincing evidence for behaviour that he observed."

If he had observed the behavior he claimed, he would not need to exaggerate or emphasise it. It's science, if he sees what he was expecting to see, even if it's not at the level he was hoping for, it's still progress. He would not need to lie, nor trash all his data.

I do like the idea, and it has a lot of promise, but from what I've read, they wouldn't be very fast (compared) Especially with the advancement in laser data transfer for the large scale, and of course nano tech for the small. They would be cheap though, and environmentally friendly, and flexible, but even that is being matched with new nano tech. Plus it's only a matter of time before Moore's law is shattered. With the way things are advancing at the moment, with more countries, previously not in a position for technological advancements, are absolutely booming tech competitiveness, especially with the nano-tech scene.
And the generally demand for these things increasing.

It seems like that to me with processors now, I felt like as soon as we had duel-core, we had quad-cores, and now hexa-cores, then octo-cores. It wont be long now.

Anyway.... nice idea for a thread.
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30-04-2010, 03:22 AM   #3
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the problem wiht adding more cores to a processor to increase speed while side stepping moore's law is that you still in the end have to figure out a way to make everything smaller. I.E. a 3 gig processor in theory following the speed of light restriction on computational power states that no part of the computer that directly interacts with the processor can be more then 10 CM from the processor its self, or at that point the computer can no longer process at 3 gigs.
even with nano technology everything still at this point ( with exception to the current theories involving teleportation that use the small and large nuclear attraction principles ) the speed of light cannot be broken. which seeing as light is 186,000 miles per hour one would think this is not an issue, until you realize that to make a computer smaller, so that it can compute faster and not have the issue where a component can not be farther away then a certain distance from the CPU. to get things closer together,r they have to be smaller, and once they get a certain size they start to literally evaporate form the current flowing through them.

Problem? making something that is small enough to outweigh moor's law, while making it strong enough to carry the current required to transfer the data.

other possible solutions aside form organic processing?
fiber optics maybe?

though that discussion will take us away from theoretical physics I am still game for it.

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30-04-2010, 08:29 AM   #4
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bahahahah love it love it!!!! you 2 crack me up. arrrrr wait til Ive re read some books, a few billy's and I will be in on it. hmmmmmmm
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30-04-2010, 08:32 AM   #5
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g-man,

ummmmm doesnt light travel a tad quicker????
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30-04-2010, 08:36 AM   #6
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guys,

what was the experimental computer processor they were using to try and design chips made of atoms?? I saw the doco some time back but cant remember the name?? I think the processor was liquid cooled nitrogen for temps?

cheers bullet
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30-04-2010, 02:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by bullet1968
guys,

what was the experimental computer processor they were using to try and design chips made of atoms?? I saw the doco some time back but cant remember the name?? I think the processor was liquid cooled nitrogen for temps?

cheers bullet
Hmm, not sure of the of the exact processor name, but it's all nanotechnology. You can do a Google search and read some really interesting stuff about it.

http://www.actionbioscience.org/newf...rs/merkle.html

and here's where you can keep up with the latest advancements in nano-tech:

http://www.nanotech-now.com/

G-man: The size isn't really the issue here. Data traveling at the speed of light could circle the Earth 7 or so times per second. Bring that scale down to size of your average CPU... and you don't really have any lag. Of course you're right about the current, but with advancement being made in material sciences, such as carbon nanotubes, it won't be long (if they don't exist already) before we have materials that can withstand even the most punishing of condition's. A single strand of carbon nanotubes (at the width of a hair) is stronger than the steel support wires on modern bridges. So strong they are more than strong enough for the space elevator (I shouldn't really get started on that I'm obsessed with exploration ). They are also great conductors.

With all these advancements size isn't really the issue. Plus with 4 cores doing all the calculation work, and handling individual tasks, the distance really doesn't matter. When one or two cores are processing/transferring data over long distance (more than your 10cm) the remaining cores are busy making up the difference. The user never really experiences performance losses.

Not to mention Moore's Law is expected to become redundant by 2015.

About the subject of Quantum Entanglement you brought up earlier. Essentially you are not traveling faster than the speed of light. And the original particle does not move, but rather it's attributes are transversed, but not directly. It's more like mimicking, when two particles are entangled they are forced to do the same thing, and even as you spread them further and further apart, they are still bound to perform the same actions. While this 'teleportation' works great for photons, it would be a completely different thing for a complex organism such as a Human. But data is a completely different, and this might work for long distance instant data transfer.

The other form of teleportation is the same in that your original atoms will not be transported anywhere, but rather a digital blueprint which would be received and remolecularized from a barrel of subatomic particle at the destination. Of course the 'original' you would be vaporised in the process. But this doesn't really have anything to do with processors, as the data here would only travel at light speed.... but I still enjoy talking about it.
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30-04-2010, 03:43 PM   #8
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Hey guys,

Interesting thread here!

With regards to materials, having something strong (Tensile, temperature, compression etc) is one thing, making it either electrically conductive (for current) or transparent (for guidence of light) is another, mixing exactly the properties we requre is another, granted is could be theorised that it is possible.

I like infinity and aleph zero, that always gets me thinking.

Looking forward to seeing what the LHC can come up with.

Wonder if Hawking's has got a e on it like he had with black holes?
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30-04-2010, 03:56 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by gster123
Hey guys,

Interesting thread here!

With regards to materials, having something strong (Tensile, temperature, compression etc) is one thing, making it either electrically conductive (for current) or transparent (for guidence of light) is another, mixing exactly the properties we requre is another, granted is could be theorised that it is possible.

I like infinity and aleph zero, that always gets me thinking.

Looking forward to seeing what the LHC can come up with.

Wonder if Hawking's has got a e on it like he had with black holes?
The Carbon nanotubes I mentioned earlier are great conductors. There are other such materials that would be better for this sort of thing, but nanotube are the ones I'm reading into recently.

I'm not too great with numbers, but Aleph zero looks pretty interesting. I'll have to read into it some more.

I hear there is a lot tension in the scientific community, Cern is breaking records at the LHC, and there are several colliders all trying to find the "God particle" or Higgs Boson. Among other things.

Can you imagine that in the next 5 - 10 years we might have discovered how mass exists, and if we are alone in the universe (which I'm sure we're not) but the discovery of a terrestrial planet with condition similar to Earth would be ground breaking.... not to mention if we can detect the contents of it's atmosphere, and maybe discover it could support life... I dream of this day.
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30-04-2010, 05:59 PM   #10
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didn't read any of that because i'm drinking a beer and it looked too long....

but have to say i'm amazed by the double slit experiment and the entanglement theory blows my mind.
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30-04-2010, 09:40 PM   #11
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So with all this power we have available today, we still havent managed to send man any further than the moon....and even then we got there with only the power of a calculator. So all the theory and guess work equates to nothing until Nasa or Richard branson LOL pulls their finger out. The only theory I can come up with is that you can actually transport 2 people to a craft moving faster than light if the equation is written as if the ship were standing still and only the people were moving. Ask Mr Scott....

This should stir up a hornets nest LOL

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30-04-2010, 10:06 PM   #12
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That would be the warp drive Mr Jay, beam me up. I believe the theory behind the warp drive is you bend space time in front of the craft which 'drags' the universe along and not the ship as you stated. I also belive the energy required to do this is so massive that it is impractical and impossible.

The closest we came (with current tech) was the 2 projects (1 British, 1 American), one was project Orion. Using controlled pulses of mini nuclear reactions it could build a ship up to or near LS, in progressive increments. The trouble is though, brakes, you have to use the same increments to slow down. Also ALL theories are crud for a few reasons. One is obviously the impact/collision factor, we dont have any material that could protect the ship from any impacts such as mini or micro meteors etc.

Any ship travelling at that speed hitting particles as small a sand would be obliterated in a second. So the U.F.O thing seems even more implausible(yes I believe in aliens!!!). Wormhole or hyperspace technology would overcome some of this but you still have one big problem, TIME. You need to acheive FTL to get somewhere AND to get back to your time frame. As you all know travelling close or at LS, theory puts that time slows, maybe stops, BUT your egress point blinks out of existence due to it has aged so much.

Therefore even if we could get a bot to travel across the galaxy, unless we have the tech FTL to get info, we would have disappeared as a race/planet due to time. JUST as the bot knocks on the neighbours door!!!! What a bitch.


Its 0545 and I have to go to work, guys I will read your posts above when I get back. BTW Higgs Boson isnt that what the new bullcrap show Flash Forward is based on?? something about a pulse from a qasar and affecting the time stream somehow??

And Jay, we wont travel in space IMO EVER. We will send bots that dont age and use them as surrogate bodies (AVATAR style), and explore space that way. Cheaper, no LSU to worry about, (robots dont pee!! bahaha or eat or....). Then you also dont need to worry about any human flaws to send them up (yay Rutger Hauer)
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30-04-2010, 10:13 PM   #13
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LOL

sorry mate it was a drinking session tonight at work so just having some fun here.

I agree its impractical to send humans further into space as well. everything goes against it, unless you do look aty the worm hole theories but I wont press on that.

I can correct us both on transwarp beaming as it did actually have the equation written as the ship and us being still and only space moving...I just checked it on the film.

cool

laters
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30-04-2010, 10:14 PM   #14
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And for more interest look up the pinnacle of human mathmatical acheivement, the number 0. Apparently it was difficult for us to quantify and or understand. I could be wrong but it is also the only number that doesnt change its state UNLESS you add or subtract to it? Look it up on google, interesting.

cheers bullet
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30-04-2010, 10:21 PM   #15
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Yeh Jay if you look up warp drive its the same thing (Im having fun too). It 'DRAGS' space along NOT the ship. So in effect you ARE standing still, kinda hard to get the brain around. I just checked it, the ship rests in normal space while dragging space along BUT it can still react with the space outside of the buuble aka Star Trek.

Work calls, building of society needs Surveyor Bullet

have a sweet existence today people, the LHC MAY produce that micro-BH and swallow us the hell up.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Alcubierre

this is an actual theory?
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