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# 31 21-02-2006 , 09:03 PM
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Unusual to become involved

Bonjour Mes Amis

I generally don't bother with forums other than as a mere observer, but there seems a sincerity and maturity here that's rare. And as a retired "brief", or "shyster", I actually got a kick out of Cheney's attempted fratricide and your comments about the survivor.

It is an interesting coincidence that I'm familiar with Colchester, (at least Colchester of the 1980's), and that my daughter is currently a student at NYU and living in Brooklyn. It surprised me how congenial the chat was between an Englishman and, I presume, an American, given some of the subject matter.

I am Canadian, from the Niagara area originally, and I felt a little reaction to your disapproval concerning the Athabaska tar sands. However, I take no offence, as the realities of an oil based world economy would call for such exploitation regardless of whom happened to be the closest to the particular resource.

So, a thousand salutations to both of you, the main contributors, and allow me to add my two cents, which were minted in 1953.

On the Cartoons

One of the things to keep in mind about the Muslims is that they really have no history or cultural foundation for a separation between religion and state. They genuinely have a hard time getting their heads around the fact of the freedom from censorship we know in the west. Of course, one must except the instigators, this was much too focused to be a "genuine" reaction, not to mention the fact that these same cartoons appeared in Al Fagr, an Arab language newspaper, in Cairo last October with no discernable reaction.

https://www.di2.nu/files/Muhammed_Car...ds_Posten.html

Does that fact cause you to wonder? No protests or boycotts occurred in Egypt. Was it not insulting then and there?

The gauling issue to me is the general intolerance for things
non-Islamic whether it's ancient Bhuddist statues in Afganistan, or the institutions of the west. When that is coupled with the efforts of Iran to build nuclear weapons it makes the US policy of pre-emption seem unfortunately necessary.

I do not hold these views as a Christian, Hindu or as a member of any sect. I wish only to live in peace without intimidation. The world, in my lifetime, has become too small not to find a rational way to coexist with the Gods of various cultures.

That should be obvious to all, so the next question must be: "To what end is discord being fomented?" Is there such a long term strategy that we are unable to divine it? Unfortunately, again the seeds of future conflict have been and are being sown in the Islamic schools known as Madrasas. So, for the forseeable future, I would guess that there will be an over supply of fanatics.

https://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21654.pdf

Islam is not a centrally organised faith in the manner that Catholicism, or Baptist Conventions are: this is no Pope or Archbiishop of Canterbury to promulgate a "party line" to keep adherents on beam. This is another fact that is hard to understand for westerners because there is not one voice to stand up and say either, this or that, is or is not, official Muslim creed.

To conclude on the Islamic points, I do think that reform has to come for the sake of the faithful. And I'm not talking about central Islamic tenents, rather, there has to be some form of leadership developed so that violent rogue groups, of all faiths, can be marginalized. The clashes with Hindus, Jews, and Christians as well as the monumental insult to the Bhuddists should be sufficient to make thinking people take notice that the current laissez-faire approach to administering Islam and the responses to it are costing lives. Indeed, such a dialogue should and will have to include other major faiths so that some protocol exists for redressing issues. What has to be abandonned is the underlying attitude on all sides that no one's faith but one's own is legitimate.

Am I blaming Muslims? No! I point to the lack of a clear indication of what Islam stands for in the lives of those who bear me and my family no ill will. The condemnation of insults might well then be issued, the point made and taken without the response that confirms every prejudice about Islam's irrationality thereby driving people further apart.

Violence and terror must be condemned as political tools. The lesson of Palestine's ultimate self determination must be achieved by dialogue not terror and reprisal.

Is that going to happen? It had better.

Perhaps we should all just focus on hunting lawyers.

# 32 21-02-2006 , 10:44 PM
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What a fantastic breath of fresh air.

You have put substance to some interesting points.

Firstly, as an Englishman with a genuine worry over the environment you must understand that my concern over the oil sands is not a reflection on the people of Canada. Personally I have always found the people of Canada I have come into contact with to be understanding and patient people who seam to care for the beautiful country in which they live. I understand that we live in an oil addicted world, but it saddens me than in a world of such technology it seams madness that we can't use that to find a better way in light if the problems we are starting to face. Anyway, I have spent many a day along those lines with no success.


I totally agree with your points on Islam. I would like to say that these acts of violence and murder are the results of people who do not represent the religion as a whole. Like the bad press English football fans have acquired over the years. However the shear number of the protests and the spread of them forces me to re-thing. I fear that the distance between the Islam world and the corporate world. Between religious extremism and overt liberalism is getting bigger and bigger. A neutral ground has to be found if we are to coexist.

I do not believe all is lost as there are a large number of people walking in the right direction, I just hope that more people start following them.

Nice to hear that someone so far away has (if only a minor connection) with the good ole town of Colchester. Football team is doing very well I might add user added image


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# 33 22-02-2006 , 05:39 AM
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While I agree with some of the points that you make concerning Islamic reform, I must say that there also needs to be considerable reform in the West. To be quite frank, the actions taken by the US and UK over the last five years displays an ugly underlying racism in their policies.

I have to say that I find it disturbing that anyone would consider pre-emptive action against Iran a viable option. I certainly do not wish to defend the actions or views of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, but if the West was serious about trying to disuade Iran from developing nuclear weapons then they would start by disarming their own arsenal. That we have the gall to say that it is ok for us to have such weapons, yet Iran cannot, strikes me as deeply hypocritical. What actions has the US taken to prove that they are responsible? And what right has the US to play arbiter in this matter? Despite the inflammatory language of their leader (language that was recently echoed by Chirac), when was the last time that Iran started a war with another country?

Yes, I agree that there are problems that need to be resolved within Islam, but I also see fundamental problems in the West as well. And to be honest, it seems that at the moment we are doing far more harm.

Not sure if the reference to an American contributer was directed at me, but just for the record I am a British person living in New York.

# 34 22-02-2006 , 06:19 AM
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By the way, sorry to go on, but have you seen this? It was taken from a town hall meeting in Orlando, Florida on December 4th 2001 and can be found on the whitehouse website at

https://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...11204-17.html.

QUESTION: One thing, Mr. President, is that you have no idea how much you've done for this country. And another thing is that, how did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack? (Applause.)

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Jordan. Well, Jordan, you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my Chief of Staff, Andy Card -- actually, I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident.

But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it. And I was sitting in the classroom, and Andy Card, my Chief of Staff, who is sitting over here, walked in and said, "A second plane has hit the tower, America is under attack."


How is it possible that he watched the first plane hit the World Trade Center? If this is true than there was a camera set up to record an event that had not happened yet. Of course it is probably a mistake, but if so, why did he say the same thing again on 5th January 2002 in Ontario, California? -

https://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0020105-3.html


Last edited by arran; 22-02-2006 at 06:22 AM.
# 35 22-02-2006 , 10:00 AM
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The actions of the US and UK against Iraq still distresses me and the prospect that we might recreate the disaster in Iran. Only time will tell to see what will happen.

As for what the solution to Iran, im not sure. We can see see in the case of Israel and Palestine that when western countries get involved in middle Eastern politics there is noting but blood shed and seeds of hate.

I have seen that quote before, only when I watched Fahrenheit 911, a lot of serious questions raised in that movie.


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# 36 09-03-2006 , 05:05 PM
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You gotta laugh at the way free speech is being abused in the UK at the moment this is a link to an advert to try and get more people to visit Australia which has been banned on UK television for having the words ''bloody hell' in it.

To me this just seams a bit silly that such a mild word should have such a reaction. It is still allowed in print and on the internet.

Here's to Australia user added image

Opinions anyone?


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# 37 15-03-2006 , 11:20 PM
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Thats stupid, you cant say bloody hell but the Simpsons can say ass on C4 at 6???

I always thought that "ass" was worse than "Bloody hell" as a curse, P.S I'm not a kid either!!!

Maybe the Satanists have got all religous rights onto the advert agencys???

# 38 16-03-2006 , 09:15 AM
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Religion (be it Christian or Satanist) have a habit of infiltrating normal life and trying to corrupt it from the inside.

It's just up to us to be intelligent enough to spot it and challenge it.

I can't see anything wrong with the advert. When she said it I found it rather funny.


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# 39 16-03-2006 , 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by Tim_LIVID
Religion (be it Christian or Satanist) have a habit of infiltrating normal life and trying to corrupt it from the inside.

Very true, to quote a Nobel Prize Winner "

Without religion you would have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. With religion you have Good people doing good things, bad people doing bad things and good people doing bad things in the name of religion"

# 40 16-03-2006 , 03:55 PM
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Did you see that program with Richard Dawkins on Channel 4, The Root of all Evil?

I did, it was quality. All the points were so valid and try and the language he used was soo funny and cutting.

I actually called them to congratulate them. user added image


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# 41 16-03-2006 , 04:44 PM
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Yeah man, thets where that qoutes from.

I aint got nothing against religion untill It gets rammed down my throat.

# 42 17-03-2006 , 11:02 AM
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I know the feeling, if you like that you should try and get your hands on Penn and Tellers Bullshit. They try and debunk all that sort of nonsense like Creationism and hell of a load of other stuff. Pretty funny as well.


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# 43 19-03-2006 , 02:49 AM
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On the subject of religion, everyone must have heard about Isaac Hayes quitting South Park:

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4819826.stm

Isaac Hayes: "There is a place in this world for satire, but there is a time when satire ends and intolerance and bigotry towards religious beliefs of others begins."

Matt Stone: "This is 100 percent having to do with his faith of Scientology... He has no problem — and he's cashed plenty of checks — with our show making fun of Christians."

Thank **** for shows like South Park and the Daily Show and America's Next Top Model for cutting through all the crap.

Oh, and I thought it was pretty funny when I was listening to a Penn Jillette interview on that same book the other day and he revealed that the middle name of his daughter is Crimefighter.user added image

# 44 19-03-2006 , 03:14 AM
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Wow - simply maya edits your swear words! ha ha! So much for free speech! I am tempted to see just what words get blocked. maybe a subject for a new thread?:p

# 45 19-03-2006 , 01:39 PM
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So true, without people like that to make fun of religion like that.

Very healty to do in my opinion.


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