Do humans have choice? - Page 2 - Simply Maya User Community

# 16 17-01-2004 , 11:44 PM

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Elemenopee said

Ponysgirl: Just had to bring in the whole meaning of life didn't ya?

Originally Posted by

Of course, but then isn't that what this is really all about? Besides I am to old to play around anymore. :p

As to your line of arguement against reincarnation; that would be true if the majority did understand and live according to an enlightened belief in reincarnation. Unfortunatly we do not remember our before lives when we are reincarnated. So actually the majority of people do not accept this belief or have one that is designed to just keep them under other peoples yokes of control, not bring enlightenment.

Darkware, I appoligise if my posts are not in accord with your need for facts and factually proven statements. I understand that need although I no longer live by it. I mean if all things we believe and accept as truth must be proven first why is man endowed with the ability to have such deep faith?

Faith is also something that effects choices, if indeed we really do have choices and are not just reacting to previous actions.

"Si vis pacem para bellum" if you desire peace, prepare for war.

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# 17 18-01-2004 , 02:38 AM

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No Ponysgirl! I don't mind at all if you state what you believe. All insite is perfectly welcome and all views of life, choices, decisions, etc are appreciated. I absolutely love hearing what other people think about stuff like this because it interests me so much. It feels really good actually, to know that I'm not the only one ou there who thinks this far. You have no idea how many people I've already talked to about this subject and have absolutely no concept of anything I say. It's refreshing to hear what everyone says even if it's not what I believe. lol

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# 18 18-01-2004 , 04:38 AM

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ok Darkware, going back to the purely hypothetical scenario with the two identical apples symmetrically placed within reach of the perfectly ambidextrous person. Let's add another clause to this problem - the person must take 1 and only 1 apple. This removes the proposed solutions of both apples or none. Now the person will either spontaneously die or will make have to a choice. There are no criteria present for the person to preferr one apple over the other, so if a choice is to be made their mind must pick out of 'random' (random meaning that absolutely no mathematical order comes into play). however, there is no such thing as complete randomness. There is order and there are mathematical patterns present everywhere in the universe (which fits your argument that we have no 'choice' as such and that life follows a pattern). It is therefore impossible for the person to make a completely random choice.

This creates a bit of a paradox - oneapple must be picked, but for this to happen it must be picked completely randomly, which cannot be done. The situation will not allow neither of the apples or both of the apples to be chosen, but just one apple cannot possibly be picked. There are no possible solutions to the problem.

But the problem itself is also impossible because it requires perfection in it's components, and perfection does not exist in the universe. The apple problem is perfect and its only solution is chaotic - neither of which exist under the constraints of our universe.

Sorry to get into metaphysics and stuff, but I love thinking about these things. user added image

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Last edited by -<{ JB }>-; 18-01-2004 at 04:43 AM.

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# 19 18-01-2004 , 04:45 AM

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A situation where the individual would absolutely HAVE to take one apple would not exist if both sides of the equation were perfect. So... you're basically basing everything on an environment that would never exist in the first place.

Why would such a situation never exist if both sides of the equation were perfectly equal? Because (as I have said before I think) there is no reason to choose one over the other, thus you choose none.

Good thinking though. user added image

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# 20 18-01-2004 , 06:49 AM

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Choice is irrelevant.
There’s an old saying
You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, But you cant pick your friends nose.
Which brings me back to what I said earlier.
There are only 2 kinds of Choices.
Bad & Good.

Plus to look at an apple and trying to decide on what one to take only means one thing,,,,your not very hungry.

When you have to stop and ponder about things that are unimportant, you missing the greatest choice of all (Life) by the time you wake up, scratch your head and pull the wedgey out of your crack in the morning, some one is already having breakfast.

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# 21 18-01-2004 , 07:16 AM

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R-Tillery, I know there seems to be little practical application here upon first look, but there is. It helps in understanding how the human mind works. In order to understand it, examples have to be given, which is why I brought up the apple argument.

If people better understand how the human mind works, perhaps we can communicate better with others in the long run. Everyone will interpret what is said in this thread differently however, so multiple practical applications will exist.

Besides, it's FUN to debate stuff like this. lol. The human mind is one of the most complex items in the universe and we strive to understand it better as we go along.

www.Darkware3D.com

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# 22 18-01-2004 , 09:01 AM

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Originally posted by Darkware
A situation where the individual would absolutely HAVE to take one apple would not exist if both sides of the equation were perfect. So... you're basically basing everything on an environment that would never exist in the first place.

Originally Posted by

Having to take one apple does not affect whether or not the situation could be constructed. Clauses like this are often added to situations of 'choice' in life - for example... you are very sick and your mother opens a container of identical pills and tilts it toward you, she then says "You must take one of these."

The apple scenario was impossible from the beginning. Because perfection does not exist in the universe no one has a body that is perfectly symmetrical and ambidextrous, 2 apples cannot be perfectly identical and they cannot be placed precisely the same distance from the person etc, etc. So you actually brought up the evironment that would never exist in the first place.

The initial situation was a choice of the following: both, none, left apple or right apple. My addition just limits the situation to: left apple or right apple for the purpose of discussion.

- - - - - - - -

R-Tillery, what about choices between bad & bad; good & good; neutral & neutral; neutral & bad; neutral & good? The apple situation would be neutral & neutral

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# 23 18-01-2004 , 05:27 PM

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Hmmm. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one JB.

With your example of the pills, you imply that you "must" take one of these pills. Just because your mother says you have to, doesn't mean you can't resist. You could always make the decision to not take a pill, so the "must take one" factor does not really apply.

You say that the apple scenario was impossible from the beginning. This is not so. Obviously, it is very improbable, but all it's really doing is suggesting that the composition of atoms for each apple are identical, which technically could happen. It's called a "hypothesis."

Also, the apples could be placed equal distance from the person. They would not have to be directly in place of each other as was suggestion several posts back. They could both be directly in from of you, but be side-by-side. You will probably argue that this throws off the balance because one is farther to the left and one is farther to the right obviously. This does not matter however, because of the previously stated attribute that EVERY aspect of each side of the equation is idintical, so the human brain would not have a preference of left or right to begin with.

Anyhoo... I don't see us agreeing any time soon on this particular subject. Maybe we will. I dunno.

Keep up the good work though! lol.

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# 24 18-01-2004 , 06:17 PM

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Originally posted by -<{ JB }>-
- - - - - - - -

R-Tillery, what about choices between bad & bad; good & good; neutral & neutral; neutral & bad; neutral & good? The apple situation would be neutral & neutral

Originally Posted by

feng shui, My man,, feng shui,

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# 25 19-01-2004 , 04:26 AM

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@Darkware:

How 'bout this situation(all fictional):

I'm in areally bad mood, my girlfriend quit yesterday, I lost my job last month, my bestfriend is the reason why my girlfriend did quit.
Then a guy in the disco hits me in my face for no particular reason(he had no choice anyway... user added image

).
I'm in a bad mood, have a knife in my pocket, am angry 'bout the guy. I take the knife and cut his throat. Why should I be punished for this act? I had no choice- I've been in the moode because of happenings in the past and so it wasn't my fault at all...

CU morpher

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# 26 19-01-2004 , 04:35 AM

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ok, first of all be careful using "choice" and "free will." I have said a few times already that we do in fact have choice. I am seeing whether or not we have free will. (read back a few posts, I say something about it near the end of one of them)

Anyway, I know what you're trying to say. The reason you should be punished is because humans in general have made the choice to value life and you are taking it. If you had no reason to prevent yourself from making the choice of slitting the guy's throat, society will give you a reason, which is punishment.

Society assumes that you know better than to kill other people unless you are mentally ill or challenged.

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# 27 19-01-2004 , 05:01 AM

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That’s just premeditated murder,, Good choice / Bad Choice.

what one is it? user added image

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# 28 19-01-2004 , 05:16 AM

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Mmm, I don't know if that was directed toward me or not, but I'm assuming it isn't.

I know I was the one who began this thread, but I'm going to have to quit debating. I'm tired and have a ton of work to do. No time to explain anything any further. sorry.

adios.

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# 29 19-01-2004 , 06:08 AM

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It was directed on morpher post,, I know what your saying and trying to express, but the question you ask is one that has no Answer or maybe not what your looking for. I like the post and what every one has to say as well. user added image

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# 30 19-01-2004 , 11:16 AM

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https://www.uncommonforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=320

this thread might answer some of your all's questions. I started it before I started this one I believe.

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