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91
27-09-2006
, 03:48 PM
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This practice to my knowledge is not widespread at all, itis very limited becuase I know that the majority don't seem to mind that they are wallking on pavement where someone has died. People in Hong Kong know that at least one person has died on every few streets, ignoring this obvious fact, I think would not be very effective if you were deadly afraid of the dead. And wouldn't remembering all the spots be rather difficult as there are so many of them?
However when it comes to your house. I know that houses where murders have taken place, its gaurenteed not to sale.
mirek03, you also said, 'they do not burn money for spirits generally just their OWN ancestors so that the same will be done for them when they die. It is a tradition and an insurance (the Chinese like insurance) just in case they need it in heaven. Its a gamble i guess and, ell, its not real money, only bits of paper that are special 'spirit' money. Whether they give anyone money on this plane of existence is not relevant to the conversation. (meaning children as you mentioned). They burn incense to get rid of spirits or as an offering before various rituals, such as I-Ching or prey.'
I know that they burn spirit money (I don't think anyone would burn real money would they?), sorry to anyone if I shocked anyone (burning money is a crime), I wrongly assumed that people would have already know (who would burn real money?).
Anyways, I think what I wrote about the whole custom of buring spirit money made sense. However there seems to be some confusion of what I said about the living people giving money. So I elaborated some more...
I said in my original post that the custom of buring money for departed ancestors is a continuation of the custom of the children giving money to thier parents for better life - the same with the spirit money, its for the children to ensure that in the afterlife, thier departed parents, grandparents, great grandparents have money to buy food, clothes ect and never have to suffer. And children do give thier parents money for this.
mirek03, you also mentioned, 'Indonesia, very pagan, are petrified of spirits...'
I don't think that the majority of Indonesia is very pagan. Maybe in the very remote areas, but defantly not in the city.
I also do know that in certain parts of Africa, people in the village would would, on certain days, all sleep in a 'common house' (not sure the exact word used) as they are afraid that malevolent spirits would rape the women and kill the men.
arran, you said that, 'This sentence seems to contradict itself. Doing something to give yourself a better nights sleep would seem to suggest that what you are doing is something you believe that you should do. Sorry to be pedantic.'
Well, I don't know how this could have offended me in anyway, but I think what I wrote made sense - even though it was a bit confusing. Let me explain it once again:
Those who used religion as an excuse for political and military gain probaly know deep down that they are wrong. But being the not so good people they are, they need to believe that thier god supports thier wrong deeps so they can get fooled by thier own propaganda and sleep easy for the night.
That any better?
And Andreazz, you said a bit on the questionable morals of the biblical god. Well back in those days, when translations were made into different languages and then copied many times over, how can we be sure that someone did not add some extra content? I don't mean to offend anyone, or you, but it is a possibility.
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92
27-09-2006
, 04:51 PM
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You seem to suggest that there once was a true and real bilble (dictated by some god) that has become corrupted over time. That would be a very big problem for the faithfull as well, wouldn't it. They couldn't trust a single word in their holy book. I do not believe that that theory would be acceptable to them.
I don't think translation errors are the main problem here,
although there are more than can be counted. A very nice error is the one in which 'young girl' was translated in to virgin. Hence the absurd myth of the virgin Mary.
It would be a nice excuse for Christians though. Everything they don't like about their god could be called translation error. Instead of posessing slaves maybe the original text was talking about posessing icecream. Purchasing icecream from neighboring nations etc..
Sounds much better than all that talk about slaves.
And as for the adding stuff to the text. You're absolutely right. I'm quite sure that happened all the time.
I can recommend reading the Tenach (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numeri en Deuteronomium) while thinking "Who is going to benefit from these rules and laws". You'll be surprised. You will discover that it is always the elite, the priests, the rulers. It is all about humans trying to maintain and expand their power. God very often seems to want what those in power want too. Very convenient.
About me thinking you are an American? You remember your question?
It's just a feeling I got (could be wrong). You said something about Iowa class battleships. To me that seemed something an American might think of first in relation to the war against the Japanese Empire. For an Asian, European, Australian etc. that might not have been one of the first things to think of.
It's not important.
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93
27-09-2006
, 05:11 PM
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94
27-09-2006
, 05:35 PM
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27-09-2006
, 05:46 PM
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27-09-2006
, 07:56 PM
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"This isn't an office. It's Hell with fluorescent lighting."
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27-09-2006
, 11:26 PM
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98
28-09-2006
, 09:50 AM
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My friend you seem to contradict yourself a weee bit, but if the Chinese are sacred of the dead, well then , they are scared of the dead, and again, Hog Kong is a place i lived, not as a tourist, but as a quasi-Chinese, went to temples, watch the funeral fires that started, even though it is illegal, I can't remember when but there is a special time for it. Lived with the Chinese.
My girlfriend was Chinese was VERY scared of ANY WHERE where she saw some one burning money for the dead on the street, I didn't mean she ran across the road at irregular intervals just here and there because she thought or head someone had died there (sorry if this is how it read) , if someone was doing a ceremony, she crossed the road in fear. Not only is murder a reason for a low rental, but also if it over looks a cemetery. So it seems you have contridicted yourself there but I know what you mean. You seem well aware of many tig like this and you will no doubt learn more as we all will as time passes and heaven help us if we EVER stop learning.
As you say, yes they are scared of the dead, but not to the degree you inferred i meant, of course that would be quiet strange, Chinese people would be running all over the streets.
Mate, i only talk what i KNOW form my experience and not, 'i would think' no, it is 'I know.' I have never infered anything, it is pure experiance, I do trip up and am grateful when this is pionted out. I am not trying to make a problem or big note, I just have thought a lot about this over the past 40 years, I am 49, and I am interested in it and assume you and others on this thread are too.
As mike said, we need to respect people's thoughts and so I do not challenge anyone, just give the news as i have experienced it. For example you can not assume how the Indonesian people think if you have not lived there. I lived there for a long time, learnt the language fluently, made many Indonesian friends ect, and i still do not understand it all and this is the message I tried to infer in my very first reply (as Bill the Dill) on this thread. I never will!
I think Andreazz makes a lot of sense. No-one is competing with your beliefs my friend, no one is making a big show. I will shut up if told so but I thought for the sake of our interest, if done with respect, there is no reason we all can not learn something new here, if our ears and eyes are open to it, but the fact remains that we are all pretty much attached to our own belief and might possibly have our hands over our ears because we think that another is trying to contend with us, I really do not think that is the case here.
But I will add a bit more of a rant; I was thinking today (because of this thread) that the church was the first capitalist institution to get money using fear and ignorance, before the reformation they sold tickets to heaven and spoke latin so no-one would know what they (the priests) were talking about, and so it goes on today, the world is being run by fear and retoric, money is being made by fear, we are being controlled by fear, and do I have to spell out who and where this is happening at this very moment,
the church has started some great institutions such as the Salvation Army but thy have also started some very scary ones too, it was just a thought. There are many other institutions that make money and gain power with the use of fear, I do not have it in for the church i am simply detactched from it, it is all politics as I have said; God, or whatever you want to call it, whether, Mohammad, Buddha, Job, Khwan Yi, Lao Tzu, or just outright enlightenment, the names go on and on (we are good at naming things, it makes us comfortable to label everything and nail it down) but the home of 'God' is in our own hearts (in my opinion)and if our hearts are black well, need i say more.
Cheers mate
Stars, yea, you opened a can of worms, was it you, I didn't look at the first name on the thread, I did but not tonight so i forgot,
the journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step, a tall tree starts from first a seed (Loa Tzu)Cheers mate
take it easy and life will be easy
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28-09-2006
, 09:56 AM
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take it easy and life will be easy
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100
28-09-2006
, 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by Taylor1234
meaning im nto baptist or presbatarain (however you spell it) or anyhting else my church goes verse by verse through the bible its not a denomination
What I was referring to is that I don't believe I have to belong to any church to believe in god. Sorry if you took a misunderstanding but that is what I think. I'm not trying to get into a dispute over this.
"This isn't an office. It's Hell with fluorescent lighting."
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28-09-2006
, 09:03 PM
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28-09-2006
, 09:08 PM
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ya well I dont really know and ya we can always learn more....ya lolOriginally posted by mirek03
oh, Taylor, I think I understand. Not sure. I thought the church made a firm stand concrerning theiridentity with God, but I amnot a devout Christian and can learn a lot more, but at the moment I am learning quiet enough at school, lol, no rest for the wicked. lol
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103
28-09-2006
, 10:02 PM
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I mean, its only words without tone, and one word can be easily taken out of context out of a whole page of words and upset somebody. ?? There I go again, words are arbitrary, one of my main points. And I'm not perfect and probably have made mistakes and assumptions all over the place. Everyone has had good things to say here I think.
but anyway, I'm backing out not much more to say except explaining what I have already said I guess. When I said 'I know' i meant , I know from my experience, others may have a different slant on things and thats just as real too, so no piont getting lost in semantics or defending one's position on religion.., it's a free world (well some of it, ours is, at least we can write stuff like this, a few places in the world and we would all be in jail by now, or nearly anyway.)
take it easy and life will be easy
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104
29-09-2006
, 10:19 AM
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mirek03, I must apologize if I gave the impression that I was arguing or competing with you. That was never my intention, nor did I ever assume that was what you were doing. I do not doubt your observations, if you have lived in Bali for five years and have gotten quite close to the people, then you are most likely to be correct about thier culture.
I've never doubted that you have been involved closely with the Chinese culture, it is that in one culture, there are many other schools of thought within and sometimes, that makes it difficult to describe the entire culture accurately. I'm aware that there are people who are afraid of dead spirits, are afraid of nature spirits and then, there are people who do are not.
I also never assumed anything regarding the Indonesian people, however the statement about the widespread of pagan practices, that was a general comment (perhaps using it wrong) that can be applied to many parts of the world.
As for your reassurances that nobody was trying to compete with my believes I do not believe that anyone who has participated in this thread is trying to force thier beliefs over another, nor did I ever interprete it in that way.
If I do contradict myself a bit at times as some of you may have observed, after all I am writing in a forum and we are discussing a rather though intensive topic here, so I may trip over sometimes. If I seem to this, just point it out and I'll correct it.
As for your final thoughts regarding the Church and how it sought to profit from its members, this just came to me. During the Medieval times, didn't the Church in Britain (I may be wrong, my knowledge of Medieval history is a bit dusty) collect a certain percentage of the harvest from the lower classes of something? Don't mean to offend anyone, just curious.
Andreazz, what you say is interesting. The matters regarding the Virgin Mary is a translation mistake? I think I'll look up on that.
As for your response on adding stuff to the text to benifit the elite, that happened to many religions, where the original concept was changed throughout time. I'm thinking particularly about the Ancient Egyptians and how the whole concept of thier ruler somehow became associated with being the son of the good god (think it was Horus), and thus we should give him all our wealth and be very scared of him.
As for you thinking that I'm American, once again I'm not offended or anything, I just used the Iowa battleships as they were just a major part of the Pacific Campaign. I can ramble on and on about history, but I won't.
As for the general comments about this thread, it is sort of amazing that this hasn't turned into one giant flame war.
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105
29-09-2006
, 03:48 PM
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It think my comments about virgin Mary are a lot less interesting than my comments about slavery. When I as a Christian discovered the truth about the god I worshipped I was shocked to the core. Virgin Mary means nothing to me as that myth has nothing to do with morality, good and evil, right or wrong. It is funny though. Something to laugh about.
About the so called holy texts.
It's much worse than adding stuff to a holy text.
There is no holy text. There is no true core text. It does not exist. The text is the text. The horrible Tenach is what it is (with all the inhumane and insane stuff about slavery, rape, warcrimes, massmurder etc.). Some words put together by a few people pretending to speak in the name of whatever god they had in mind. It doesn't really matter why they did it in the first place. But it does matter very, very much how we use and abuse it in our times. The so called holy scriptures is such an ambivalent collection of words and sentences that everybody can find everything in it to use in whatever manner they please. It is totally worthless as a moral guide. We pretentious, talking monkeys are on our own. No gods to turn to. We have to decide for ourselves how we want to live with our fellow beings on this little planet. And we are not doing very well. Are we?
The Egyptians... Yes I love the ancient Egyptians. You are right ofcourse. Everybody has been doing it, and is still doing it... Pretending to speak for god to further his own little monkey plans. Bush is on a rampage in the name of his god, Bin Laden (AlKaida) is murdering in the name of his god, Hindoes are killing in the name of god, and on and on and on... Their true motivations? Who knows. Just make something up. Perhaps their violent monkey brains really believe that one should kill for peace and truth. The more you kill for faith the more true your faith becomes. God obviously loves all the violence in his name. Let's go to war for peace. In a way they might even be right. If you kill everybody on the planet it will become a very peacefull place.
Oh boy. I should put a cork in it.
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