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Old 01-01-2010, 03:05 PM   #31
ctbram
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Jay,

Just google brad peebler and rich hurry and jason bickerstaff for the interview. There is a video interview with Rich Hurray in particular where the topic of n-gons comes up.

In the video he actually shows examples of stuff he did for some movies and you clearly see n-gons.

Look at the geometry of the bottle cap I posted recently then go search the modo ticks and tricks forum. That topology was posted by a modeler that works in the art department at coca-cola and has a large n-gon at the cap and 5-sided n-gons on the sides. There is one example of the n-gons at the cap of rounded cylindrical topology.

Not all art departments and vfx directors require only 4-sided polygons. All I have to do to prove that is give ONE example and since you can see the cap from coca-cola and watch the video with examples from Rich Hurray I have proved my point (quod erat demonstrandum).

Now it's your turn show me a proof that ALL vfx directors and ALL studios and ALL art directors require ALL 4-sided polygons. GOOD LUCK.
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Old 01-01-2010, 03:07 PM   #32
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LOL a 202 nsided polygon, give me a break man, it isn't even a discussion.
There is a difference on how Zbrush and mudbox handle geometry however;
I had made a hat from a cylinder for my indiana jones project with of course the triangle ending endcap on top, when I took it in ZBrush it did some funky stuff when adding subdivisions , mudbox was more forgiving but I don't like how Mudbox works so I altered the geometry so that it ended in quads and that worked like a charm.
point is that this was just a small topological error if you will if you are deliberatly putting to much bad topology in your model you will have problems when opening the model in ZBrush it will automattically generate quads and triangles or just triangles and since this will be automatic you will have no conrol over it whatsoever.
You can experience renderproblems (artifacts)

Just humor me and press 3 when you have selected that 202 nsided model or extrude a face a couple of times or bevel the edge, trust me don't rely on nsided polygons, don't avoid them at all cost sometimes you will not see it ( in a fold or crease) , but once it is plain sight or part of a deforming surface your ****ed

Model looks nice though
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Old 01-01-2010, 03:19 PM   #33
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I just saw your post regarding all those big names, I personally don't care much about big names like ILM/Pixar/Wayne robson or whoever else might is todays hotshot.
I just look at their work and look if I can learn from that but I do the same if I look at the work of a newbee.

Thing is if some unknown person says that using a condom is against god's wishes evereybody thinks that person is a crackpot, if the pope says it everybody listens and people die from it, this is not intended as a pun against religious people but as an example.
The same goes for what you said if a big name from the industry says he likes using ngons all of a sudden it is looked upon as a new approach to modeling.
I have great respect for the work people at ILM and Pixar are making but even people like that talk sh*t sometimes
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Old 01-01-2010, 03:21 PM   #34
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If you did not realize the 202-sided polygon was being sarcastic, well it was!

The point is Jay is trying to say ALL geometry has to have exactly 4-sides. If his pipeline and vfx director demands it, that's fine, but all art departments and vfx directors and some pretty big name 3d modelers to not concur.

Just google Rich Hurry, Jason Bickerstaff, Steven Stahlberg and you will see that you do not have to have ALL 4-sided geometry.

Here is a proof:
====
PROPOSITION:
Prove that ALL studios only hire modelers that make all quad model, ALL modelers that work for major studios make only ALL 4-sided models, and ALL VFX directors only allow ALL 4-sided models is FALSE.
=====================================
PROOF:
All anyone has to do to PROVE something is NOT true is give ONE counter example. I have given 3, just google those names I have mentioned above (rich hurry, jason bickerstaff, steven stallegnberg) they are all professionals, and you will find examples of work they have done for major studios, for major movies, for major productions that have geometry with n-gons and triangles and they have all reported to vfx/art directors. The bottle cap topology recently posted is another example of a topology with all three cases - It has quads, tris, and a large 32-sided n-gon. I would argue that coca-cola advertising is a studio, the person posting the topology is a professional, and he reports to a art director / vfx director. That meets all the requirements of my proof.

Q.E.D.
======================================

As I can show or point to references that show examples of n-gons of > 8-sides and triangles being modeled by professional modelers working at major studios that most certainly report to vfx/art directors then my proof is INDISPUTABLE.

Now all you and Jay have to do is show ME a proof that demonstrates ALL models created by ALL professional modelers working at ALL major studios and reporting to ALL VFX/art directors create only ALL 4-sided models.

Unless either of you can do that please stop posting in my thread as though you are all knowing authorities.
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Old 01-01-2010, 03:41 PM   #35
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While I am on a roll.

Why don't both you guys go over to 3dbuzz, and 3d-palace, gnomon workshop, and kurv-studios websites and tell them that they are ALL teaching bad modeling practices because they all have tutorials that create models with geometry that has triangles and n-gons! Even tutorials from this website have models with n-gons and tri's.

So there are more examples to prove my point. Try going to their forum and berating ALL their tutorials that have quads and n-gons.

DT and gnomon and Kurv are certified Maya, Max, Houdini, XSI, and Lightwave instructors.

update: Oh yeah and check out the Behind the Scenes tutorials a tutorial series at gnomon to demonstrate the actual modeling, uv layout, rigging, animation, and rendering pipeline of actual studios where they have both hard surface BTS5 and organic character BTS3 tutorials where models with tri's and n-gons are created.

I don't have to do anything more to prove my point unless you guys can PROVE yours, I am done with this discussion!
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Old 01-01-2010, 04:22 PM   #36
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Hi ctbram
Do you use the soften edge tool on you hull and are you using the bevel edge tool to get the round shape of the hull front, cannot answer the wrights or wrongs of the n gon debate bit like asking how longs a piece of string all I know is the model is looking great. If you do model the update viper could you do a tutorial on the hull.............dave
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Old 01-01-2010, 04:36 PM   #37
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Dave,

For the parts that are not smoothed - engine cores and the hull - I use soften harden edge for the most part with a smoothing angle of 20-35. I also make extensive use of edge bevels for chamfered and round edges on the unsmoothed parts.

For the smoothed parts - wings and forward nacelles - I use a combination of 1 and 2 segment bevels and adding edge loops to tighten up the edges to the desired degree of roundness / tightness.

As for the n-gon debate I have proved my point and I can model to whatever level is required. I am not reporting to an art/vfx director or doing any of this work for a large studio. However, I can assure you that everything I do as a hobbyist / enthusiast, and that is all I have ever claimed to be, is based on tutorials and techniques I have seen and read and were created by professionals that work at major studios and report to vfx/art directors. So I have indisputably proved my point and feel I need to say nothing more about it.
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Old 01-01-2010, 04:38 PM   #38
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Mastone,

Why would I need to press the 3 key? Are you proposing now that ALL models must be smoothed and built in anticipation of being deformed?

WOW! Please ask Jay to press the 3 key on his sand speeder and watch what happens when that is rendered! I can press the 3 key on my sand speeder and it has tri's. I'd be happy to put it to a vote as to which has fewer rendering artifacts.

If you believe n-gons and tri's are bad don't look at my work, you will go blind! Oh and mastone, that is sarcasm too! lol
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Old 01-01-2010, 05:28 PM   #39
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I really like how you two are argue. But if you want clean topology 4 side faces or tris ... that's what you should aim for. 5 side + faces are causing a lot of problems .
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Old 01-01-2010, 05:54 PM   #40
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Perhaps it is my drug induced stupor, and if so forgive, but as i look through all of Jays posts on this thread Ctbram, i se no where where he stated that "all, sups and All vfx studios, All ect ect ect, say no n-gons, so forth and so on, that you are asking him to prove.

I do see where he did offer the generally sound advice "Chances are a you put a model thru any pipeline with that sort of face count on a poly you will have a problem with the model 'generally' as the renderer has to 'guess' the surface before spitting out out the image."

Now Jay, to my knowledge is one of Few people here who have as much experience as he does in the industry professionally. He would as far as SM goes, be a good source of information on the subject of what studios wish for and require of their modeling pipelines.

Ct, you are a good modeler, and you make very nice work, you also have alot of very good ideas around some common problems your putting holes in cylinders for example. but as you stated you ar a hobbyist not a professional in the industry, are you sure that your models woudl pass th inspection of those who woudl have the final say so during production? The answer to that question should dictate weather or not you are so apt to provide your strong opinions against a member of the professional community on a forum that exists solely for the purpose of beginners and hope-fulls learning the ropes of the industry.

That being said, i still think the viper is comming along nice, and woudl like to see your take on a Mk VII
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Old 01-01-2010, 06:25 PM   #41
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Thanks G-Man, one of the few people that I trust with my life.
However just so my words come across AGAIN

dude I dont have to prove anything to anyone. Im the one sitting in the studio all day working this stuff out with people, FX sups and various TDs, and Im the one whose tutes are sitting on your computer. And I say this with sincerity and not big headedness, as its really not me.

Its purely from my own experience and interest to get people on the right track with their modelling and from my own experience I can tell you whats good and bad. I am advising you do it for the better.

I didnt say dont use an Ngon, I said I use them, albeit 4 sided. Most of the tri stuff out there are for game models though saying that theres probably more quads these days because of the allowed high poly counts just check out Gears of War 1 and 2 - great examples in both. Still come rendertime and its all tri's regardless.

LOL well if we are going to name drop too....

My colleague Steven Stalhberg uses 5 sides very very sparingly, Ive even quoted the man himself mate. He actually doesnt recommend them. I have learnt from him in the past.

ILM modeller Tariq Merza is a man whose dvd you really need to buy...he opens a serious can of modelling whoopass. It will enlighten you.

Check out Jeff Unay of Weta, he just finished Avatar as Lead Modeller. His Dvd which is a couple of years old now is still worth its weight in gold. theres a section on it where he shows you how to eleimate those extra faces like 5's plus. very cool.

Check out Bay Raitt...Gollum Modeller...need I say more.

the smooth key 3 doesnt 'make' tris its just the smoothing algorythm kicking in in the open GL. I dunno where I modeled the 'physical' tris on that one - there arent any -the only tris that will be present are those that will be generated like in all renders and thats at rendertime. I just checked for my own sanity LOL

But after the reeling off of those other great DVD resellers for their modelling tutes, I dont generally buy them as they reach a point where they are...well... the same. The rest as they say comes with experience.

Also theres a topology thread on SM, worth taking a peak.

Onwards....

Jay
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Old 01-01-2010, 07:07 PM   #42
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This thread is really interesting. As for the last part from Jay, do you have tiltes to those DVDs, ISBN-numbers, links or anything. I would really like to have some pro modelling DVDs to dig into when I am done with the tutorial basics(which I am not).

I am modelling a little boat of mine and have tried to keep it as simple and low on faces as I can and Maya occasionally make polys with 3 or 5 sides. Why does it insist on making them if it is bad?
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Old 01-01-2010, 08:20 PM   #43
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Olorin

Yeah sure, check out www.freedom-of-teach.com I think thats right. Im not sure Tariq Merza is on there anymore but I think the dvd is available from 3d total too http://shop.3dtotal.com/product_info...s6qjv17shgqt63

Also the Jeff Unay thing is available from Autodesk (should be) but there was a book version called Hypereal character modelling.

Bay Raitt doesnt have a dvd but he has a site called Spiraloid.com which is kind of like a place for digging really...seek and you will find http://cube.phlatt.net/forums/spiraloid/index.php

cheers
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Old 01-01-2010, 09:19 PM   #44
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Why would I need to press the 3 key? Are you proposing now that ALL models must be smoothed and built in anticipation of being deformed?
No but I use the 3 key to look if there is some strange popping or irregular smoothing to fish out some problem area's.
And regarding the last part yes I would consider the possibilty of a model being deformed in the proces, you see director's are a strange breed indeed ;
At first they want to have a let's say a Battlestar Galactica Colonial Viper MKII just passing in front of a camera, before you know it he/she wants a heavily battered version in the shot " to show the audience that there really is a war going on out there" .
And again I am not saying never ever use a NGon just use them with caution and sparingly that's all.

Now why don't we just start modeling again instead of talking about ngons like some silly schoolgirls LOL
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:13 PM   #45
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But I like schoolgirls (runs off laughing like Beavis and Butthead)

anyway....the model is fine, as been said use with care.....carry on.

CTBRAM, if you want I can delete the large amounts of text in the thread. I have the power of a schmoderator!

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